Welcome to the open thread. This is the place for all of the discussion that doesn't fit elsewhere.
We're slowly, but surely pondering upgrading some vehicles in my family. Currently a family of 3 with a 
2001 Dodge Caravan with 230K (and on its 3rd transmission) and a 1996 Honda Civic also with 230K on it. Both vehicles have seen better days. I'm inclined to find a 3-4 year old Honda or Toyota for my wife, and barring catestrophic failure of the Van she'll get a new vehicle first. She definitely wants something bigger than the Civic (understandable, so do I!) but gas mileage is very important since she puts on at minimum 60 miles a day commuting to work, and probably another 150 throughout the rest of the week. We live in Minnesota so good in the winter is an important consideration. This vehicle won't tow, will never be off-road and won't ever be raced. Comfort & reliability will trump performance in this vehicle. What do you think should be on our list? I'm guessing we wouldn't go over $20K and would really like to be at about $15K.
Chris Meirose on March 21, 2011 at 10:02 AM
I do also own a 1988 Chevy S-10 4x4 that has been in storage for the last 18 months, and a 1982 Honda Goldwing for when I need to get out and feel free.
I'm inclined to avoid anything made by Dodge still.
Cookie the Dog's Owner on March 21, 2011 at 10:11 AM
You might look at the Mazda 5. It'll pull 30MPG on the highway even with an automatic, does well in snow, three row seating. My wife likes ours.
Anthony Cagle on March 21, 2011 at 10:49 AM
I fail to see what is un-family-like about an AMC Pacer which can no doubt be had for that price.
That Car Guy (Chuck) on March 21, 2011 at 12:02 PM
Big Chris: "I'm inclined to find a 3-4 year old Honda or Toyota for my wife..."
If you want a car that's as good as a 1996 Civic but is larger, what about a 2006 or later Civic? They have grown somewhat, are still very dependable cars, and should easily fall into that price range.
You may have answered your own question there. :)
Chris Meirose on March 21, 2011 at 12:25 PM
Chuck - the Honda will probably be the 1st thing we look at. My mother-in-law has a 2008 Camry that will also likely be in the running. My parents have an '09 Accord as well. But I'm hoping (maybe wishfully) for something different. And by different I don't mean odd different, just a bit of spice while still meeting our needs. Responsibility is evil.
Les on March 21, 2011 at 02:02 PM
Good in snow, comfortable, reliable... You need a Saab. 15K will get you a 2007-2009 9-3 or 9-5.
An Impreza may be O.K., although they are prone to bottom-end failures and the gas mileage won't be good (from personal experience).
The 2006-on Civic is terrible in the snow. It doesn't have any ground clearance, and the front spoiler will crack if you go anywhere near a snow bank. Look for a 4 cylinder Accord instead, especially the ones with drum brakes on the rear (way cheaper to maintain).
Mazdas rust way too soon, Nissans can be nightmares (coils, transmissions). Recent Toyotas aren't as good as they should be (cheap materials, so-so reliability).
A Golf, Rabbit or Jetta can be good, but stick with a base model. The engines, bodies and transmissions are good, but the add-ons are iffy.
Unfortunately, I don't think that the Big 3 have made anything that's both "Car Lust worthy" and good on gas in the past 10 years (that goes double if you keep insisting on "reliable").
Guest on March 21, 2011 at 03:23 PM
@Les: Don't make me laugh...VW? Seriously? They haven't made anything that ages well in the last 40 years. Apocolyptic failures of very expensive parts are what Jettas/Golfs are known for. Exceptions occur, but the vast majority are very bad experiences.
How about a CR-V or an Odyssey? Highlander or Matrix/Vibe?
MattC on March 21, 2011 at 03:39 PM
I will second the last post. A CR-V/RAV4 would probably fill the void.
Chris Meirose on March 21, 2011 at 06:36 PM
The CRV/RAV4/Matrix may all get consideration. VW & Saab probably not since we live in a small rural town in Southern MN, so getting parts/maintenance at reasonable prices is unlikely. And my wife HATES minivans. She laughs at me because I drive one.
mike on March 22, 2011 at 05:29 AM
I think a Golf is a good choice. Mine is at 240,000 and still going strong. It's roomy, economical and still alot of fun! It magically turns from a sedate quiet highway cruiser to a demonic curve eater at the drop of a gear or two. I prefer the seating and driving position to that to of the Civic (we have a hybrid too). The civic is just no fun to drive at all, and it is not a harchback. The hatch back is great.
Colin Carmichael on March 22, 2011 at 12:13 PM
I'll second the Mazda5 vote. We LOVE ours even with four kids in car-seats!
tigerstrypes on March 22, 2011 at 01:51 PM
What, no station wagons?
How about a Dodge Magnum? Take the 5.7 Hemi with deactivating cylinders. Avoid the V-6, as I've read in this site that the auto transmission is geared for the V-8, but it's useless with the V-6. Keep it stock and you won't be substituting broken axle shafts that are Mercedes-Benz pieces.
Dunno much about 3rd-gen Jeep Grand Cherokees, Dodge Journeys or Chrysler Pacificas. They're different in my book.
Are the Ford Freestyle/TaurusX or Ford Flex any good?
Dustin on March 22, 2011 at 02:32 PM
Honda's price premium is due to its reputation. I'd suggest a 7th generation Accord with a V-6 (they are bullet proof).
You could also get a 3-4 year old Odyssey with the same engine. You can achieve excellent mileage for a vehicle with such a range of uses. Taken that way, it's a very efficient use of money. If you're keeping a car for the 250k mileage range, you need to stay away from GM and Chrysler and VW. Many of their cars have major reliability issues that do not appear until 50k+ miles. It's a possibility with any make, but hedge your bets with a nice Honda. You don't want your wife to be stranded 5 years from now with a bad transmission.
Mike E on March 22, 2011 at 02:44 PM
I like my Mazda 5, but the mileage isn't great - if you want a relatively compact 6-seater that's reasonable priced and fun to drive, by all means, but I'm not sure it's what you're looking for.
I dunno if it's big enough, but you can get a new (obsoleted model) 2011 Ford Focus at a huge discount now, assuming you can find one...
Bruce Rheinstein on March 22, 2011 at 02:51 PM
The very attribute that makes Hondas and Toyotas desirable as new cars cuts against them as used cars. They don't depreciate much the first few years, so they tend to be overpriced as used cars.
Someone recommended Saab, but unless you have a good relationship with a mechanic who knows Saabs, I'd stay away -- and I own one. Repairs can be pricey. You'd be better off with a Chevy Malibu than a 9-3. They're similar cars and you'll have better luck with the Malibu when it comes to repairs.
Likewise VW has improved their quality a lot, but European cars are still less reliable than their Japanese and Korean counterparts, and repairs can be expensive.
If you're interested in value, go with a used Hyundai. The quality is competitive with their Japanese counterparts, and the prices are very good.
Chris Meirose on March 22, 2011 at 02:53 PM
The Ford Fusion looks interesting, but I have yet to try one out (or for that matter even look at the specs). I love the look of the Flex but I'm pretty comfortable in thinking they'll be out of our price range, bigger than my wife wants, and not nearly fuel efficient enough for consideration. Now for me on the other hand...
David Colborne on March 22, 2011 at 02:57 PM
Okay, here's what you do. Go out and buy a used Land Rover. For $15k, you should be able to buy one that's about 4-6 years old with about 100k miles on it. During the brief period that you have it in which it runs, it'll be absolutely fantastic on snow, ice, lava, or the savannah. After about six months or so, something expensive will break on it - maybe a catalytic converter, maybe something electronic. When that happens, take it out back, light it on fire, and toss tea bags at it. Then, while the tea burns, scream, "GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!"
Then go buy American. Woo!
Ryan on March 22, 2011 at 02:58 PM
I bought a 2007 Yaris four door sport for myself as a daily commuter. My wife liked it so much she will hardly let me drive it anymore. Suprisingly, it fits the three kids (age 8,11,12), herself and I just fine, and gets 35-40mpg (me vs her driving) in the city. If you just want a car that gets almost hybrid gas mileage at half the cost, consider the Yaris. Four years later, we've only had to replaced the water pump under warrentee at 30k miles. I've been thinking of buying another for myself.
Ryan on March 22, 2011 at 03:05 PM
Dustin:
Me and a friend started our families about the same time. So we both went out and bought a minivan. I went with the 2000 toyota, he went with the brand new Honda Odyssey. He went through two transmittions before he just went out and bought a new Odyssey and that one didn't last more then 3 years either. So now 11 years later, I still own the same van he has gone through three Odyssey's. (what is the plural of Odyssey?)
Not very scientific sample of one but when you look at the numbers Honda is a bit better in every spec... you don't get that without making things a bit thinner or run things a bit hotter. If you know what I mean.
John M. on March 22, 2011 at 03:08 PM
Big Chris,
One Word: Sonata. I just drove from Fort Worth to Austin and back. AVG 38 MPG. I traded in an old Accord with over 200k on a used 2009 with 35k. Put about 12,000 miles on it in a year and can't say enough about it.
I was going to buy another Accord, but was blown away by the Hyundai quality and value. MPG a real unexpected bonus. I gave $12.6k for the loaded GLS model. Prices in the DFW area for 2009-2010 models range from $12.5 to $17.5k. Depending on mileage, condition, etc.
Great value for the money.
Rich S. on March 22, 2011 at 03:30 PM
It has to be a Subaru, Legacy or Outback. Superb in winter, absolutely reliable, and there should be zillions in your part of the world, which means that maintenance need not be done by the dealer.
15-20k should get you a two or three year old one in excellent shape and well-optioned.
I know nothing of the Imprezas, but we have had serial Subarus in our garage since our one-and-only was born. He's grown and gone, but the Subaru remains. The current one has 70,000 miles on it and only oil changes and tires (and headlights, which we have on around the clock). You can't beat the Suby.
Guest User on March 22, 2011 at 03:33 PM
For 30mpg and Toyota at the midsize class, it's pretty much going to be a Camry 4-cyl or Camry Hybrid. Note that a 4-cylinder camry will not be very comfortable during a Minnesota winter unless equipped with heated seats, as the 4-cylinder engine will struggle mightily to heat both itself and the cabin on a 5F morning.
On the other hand if you can roll back to about a 2000 or 2001 Camry XLE-V6 or Lesus ES-300, that might do it. Both are lighter vehicles with lower-output engines than the current versions and can push 30mpg highway while still having enough torque to pass a slow-moving truck. They also tend to be owned by older customers and can still be found as one-owner vehicles with less than 100k miles. You might have trouble finding one in the midwest that isn't succumbing to rust blighting, but if you can shop the central western states, they're all over. Figure about $7-8k for the vehicle, and then $2200 for a 4-wheel strut job and brake service, plus front-end rebuild, valve cover gaskets, fluids change, and tires, and you're still well within your budget. Just keep an eye open for signs of sludging.
kwo on March 22, 2011 at 03:54 PM
My wife and I are also looking at a 3-4 year old family car for a small (2 adults, 2 children) family. We're looking at the Honda CR-V and Pilot, along with the RAV-4, Subaru Forester, and Hyundai Santa Fe. They all seem pretty comparable. But it's interesting that the Pilot, which is a slightly larger unit, is selling for about the same price as the smaller "cute utes".
e.g. zachary on March 22, 2011 at 04:02 PM
for brand new 2wd for a 3 person family and mostly city driving, you will not beat a brand new honda fit. low floor pan means it has much better cargo room than anything remotely near its class, especially with half the 60/40 rear seats down. it is also a great snow car if you buy decent snow tires for it. much better car than a civic. if you need bigger new get a tdi jetta wagon.
if going used 2wd, get a tdi jetta wagon that was made in germany and a good set of snow tires.
if you want a used 4wd vehicle get a 2005 rav4 with low miles and a standard tranny. this is the last of the old smaller body style but with the new gen motor and it is a great snow car in awd plus real full 4wd capacity on tap with the central locker switch engaged for the heavy stuff unlike the other awd vehicles in this range. the 2005 had more than adequate power with a standard and great economy.
alternately pay the premium to get the much bigger 2006+ 4 cylinder rav4. the auto and the higher displacement version of the 4 cyl motor offset each other so performance is like the 2005, and it also has a central diff lock. you will find the 4 cyl has more than adequate power unless you tow, whereas the v6 is often overkill.
if you truly need an suv get an early tdi vw touarag for fuel economy or a well maintained but full depreciated late 90s early 2000 era v8 landcruiser/lx470 for the best value possible on every item except fuel economy.
Haiku Guy on March 22, 2011 at 04:06 PM
I love the '04-'06 Scion xB. Lightweight an lightly powered, so it's not for everyone. I love the upright seating, terrific visibility and versatility. I'm 6-4 and over 300#, and I am very comfortable in this car.