Toyota Acceleration Issue Open Thread

We haven't really tackled the Toyota acceleration issue yet, both because we're not really a current events blog and because there's not much innately car lusty about alleged car failure and deaths.

But, if you'd like to talk about it, here's the place to do it. Remember--keep it respectful and stay away from politics.

--Chris H.

Comments

[Chris Hafner on February 16, 2010 at 09:58 AM]

To be honest, I haven't followed the issue closely enough to be an expert. You know, it's not like I run an automotive blog or anything. But there is one thing I'd like to point out that was missed in the Audi unintended acceleration furor in the late 1980s, and that's that in almost every case, brakes can easily overpower the engine.

If you're at a stop and you hold down both the brake and the accelerator--an an automatic-transmission car, obviously--and you won't go anywhere. This is actually called brake-torquing and is a great way to get a quick launch in a drag race--but you won't launch until you remove the brakes.

Even if you start at highway speeds and then simultaneously floor both accelerator and brake--with the force of momentum also working against the brakes--the car will stop. It won't be great for the car, but the car will stop. Car and Driver recently tested this, and even a car as heavy and powerful as a GT500 Mustang wills top with only a modest increase in braking distance.

Again, I haven't followed the Toyota issue closely enough to know if this strikes at the heart of the matter, so just consider this a safety tip. Unless there's simultaneous acceleration and brake failure, just standing on the brakes should be sufficient to stop the car or prevent it from moving in the first place. And, of course, if it's a manual-transmission car, just engage the clutch pedal to remove the car's motive force.

[...m... on February 16, 2010 at 10:51 AM]

...i had the throttle stick wide-open while driving my parents' oldsmobile ninety-eight about twenty-three years ago, and its engine definitely overpowered the brakes...

...i was able to slow it enough to not be careening out of all control, although crossing through traffic against a red light, even at twenty miles per hour or less, is pretty scary for a first-year driver desperately body-bracing brake pressure to little avail...i managed to pull off the main street and shift into park within two or three intersections, destroying the transmission in the process, but safely stopping the car...

...what i've read about the toyota incidents that is worrisome is that the car can't be shifted out of gear when under hard acceleration - if true, that's a catastrophic design failure...

[Chris Mallow on February 16, 2010 at 11:08 AM]

I took a good read through all the stuff that Jalopnik and C&D had posted regarding the Toyota recalls, and they all make a good point: doesn't anyone know how to actually DRIVE THEIR CAR any more? Case in point: when I was 19, I was doing some work on the brakes of my wife's 1978 Toyota Corona. Though I thought I had done so, I had not fully bled the brakes after the work. Well, during my test drive, the brakes failed...as I somewhat rapidly approached a stop sign for entry to a very busy street. I didn't panic...I semi-calmly reached down and pulled the emergency brake, and used that method to limp back home. I was a relatively in experienced driver, had taken only the regular Driver's Ed during summer school after my junior year, and had still somehow managed to do the logical thing a driver should do when in the situation I was in.

There are three ways a person could respond to uncontrollable acceleration: 1) hit the brakes (as Chris and C&D have pointed out), 2) shift to neutral (and GOTO Line 1), or 3) shut off the engine. None of these should cause catastrophic damage to your vehicle, and any damage to your vehicle is preferable to death or serious injury. Yet, in so many cases, it seems that the Toyota drivers were unable to conjure up any of these (leading Jalopnik to opine that other "cockpit distractions" could have also come into play during the more serious incidents). I also think that Americans are too used to driving reasonably-new, over-refined cars that don't have unusual hiccups that older cars had, and that further insulates them from various types of driving adversity that can occur.

I understand that Americans want a comfortable ride, wrapped in as much luxury as they can afford. But it is obvious that many Americans apparently no longer wish to even drive their cars. They would much rather talk on the phone or surf the Web or sleep or read or eat than drive, since they seem to do all of these while driving with disturbing regularity. Maybe our automotive innovation dollars are being wasted in the wrong places...what Americans REALLY want is auto-drive.

[Cookie the Dog's Owner on February 16, 2010 at 11:15 AM]

TTAC has been all over this issue.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ttacs-complete-guide-to-toyotas-gas-pedals-teardown-pictures-toyotas-fix-analysis-commentary/

The best explanation I've seen for why it happens with certain pedal units, and how it should be fixed (swap out the pedal unit for the other type).

[tristan on February 16, 2010 at 02:18 PM]

i think comparing a performance car with a big engine is far from reality. a less powerful car wont have as big a rotor or drum in relation to the weight of the car, also throw a hill in the mix and brakes don't stand a chance. maybe self preservation of not being able to steer (steering lock) or fear of blowing a motor is the reason people don't just throw it in neutral or shut it off at the key.

[Chris Meirose on February 16, 2010 at 03:58 PM]

As others have mentioned - make Neutral your friend. If you aren't smarter than the car, you shouldn't be operating it.

[Chris Hafner on February 16, 2010 at 04:11 PM]

tristan: "i think comparing a performance car with a big engine is far from reality. a less powerful car wont have as big a rotor or drum in relation to the weight of the car, also throw a hill in the mix and brakes don't stand a chance."

I can maybe see the hill, but a less powerful car has less engine power to overwhelm the brakes. Car and Driver tested sedans and economy cars as well; they expected the Mustang GT500 to provide the stiffest test, but in each case the brakes overwhelmed the engine power.

Like ...m... if there's a fault that prevents Toyota drivers from changing gear and full throttle, well, that's a serious problem.

[...m... on February 16, 2010 at 04:32 PM]

...tristan raises a very significant point: on certain ignition designs, the risk of steering lock can easily make shutting off the engine riskier than piloting the car at full throttle toward a safer stopping location...i know that's why i kept going forward on my oldsmobile adventure, and with a column shifter, good luck hitting neutral without bouncing into reverse in the process...

...i haven't driven an automatic transmission in decades; are cars still built with column shifters?..

[Chris Hafner on February 16, 2010 at 04:39 PM]

Here's the C&D story - interesting in that they tested a Camry as well as an Infiniti and the Roush Mustang (by bad - I remembered it as a GT500). It's interesting because they also address the issue of shifting into Park at speed and the undesirability of shutting off the ignition.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

[yankee on February 16, 2010 at 07:06 PM]

What we have here is a classic case of someone yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater. I personally think this whole thing is a bit of a ruse, for a number of reasons for which I won't discuss here.

I have an '08 Sequoia that falls under the recall parameters. I haven't taken the Sequoia back to the dealer for the "recall" and I don't intend to - simply because I don't believe there's anything wrong with it. My actions (or lack thereof) have absolutely nothing to do with any loyalty to Toyota and everything with not falling for this media-driven hysteria that suddenly every Toyota made in the last few years is now a demonically-possessed road menace - simply because of a select few incidents that Toyota can't blame on its drivers - but I can.

And if... IF... my Sequoia all of a sudden pulls a "Christine" on me and starts accelerating unintentionally, like any other car this can happen to... I put it in NEUTRAL. Game over. Problem solved (the accusation that the car can't be shifted into neutral while it's accelerating is more media bunk).

[Random Walker on February 16, 2010 at 11:57 PM]

Indeed I too believe that the underlying media hysteria is politically motivated... and as such off limits here... makes the whole discussion a bit pointless.

If anything, this witch hunt may result in some discounts and incentives on Toyotas in the foreseeable future, which in my opinion makes the product even more highly desirable than normally. I for one would be perfectly willing to trust any of the current production Toyotas and would haul my family in it with no hesitation.

[Dump Trucks on February 17, 2010 at 02:15 AM]

As Toyota user I must say Toyota Group is best known group today and I like Toyota cars.

[...m... on February 17, 2010 at 06:03 AM]

^ ...that's a spambot, someone might want to delete it (and this post too, while you're at it)...

[Steaming Pile on February 17, 2010 at 08:46 AM]

@Chris - unfortunately, most Corollas, Camrys, and other oft-named Toyota products are purchased with automatic transmission. Thus, just hitting the clutch won't do it. You have to pop it into neutral, which is easy to do if you aren't overcome with hysteria and panic.

We have a '09 Corolla, and it's a pretty nice car. I figure once Toyota fixes these recall issues, I'll have the Toyota I expected to buy - a boringly reliable appliance sedan that will run until the rest of the car falls apart from overexposure to the sodium chloride our local highway department uses to melt snow.

Hit the gas with the engine off and listen carefully - you'll hear a faint ziiiiiiip from whatever device they use to provide resistance so that it "feels" right. Since the throttle is electronic, I would imagine a kid playing around going bbbbbrrrrrrooooooooommmmm wouldn't be able to flood it by repeatedly mashing the gas pedal like he would Dad's old Chevy.

As for the impending investigation into the electric power steering that some people (around 100) are complaining about, that's a work of genius that ought to have been implemented long ago. Replace the hydraulic power steering system with an electric motor and save 1-2 MPG and reduce the overall level of complexity of the car's various systems. What you end up with in our case is a power steering system with just enough resistance engineered back into it to make it NOT feel like one of those 70s land yachts that you could steer with your little finger.

And the engine is only 1.8 liters, the car itself being about the same size as the Camry was a generation ago, so I can't imagine the brakes not being able to stop the car with the throttle stuck open. The car just isn't that heavy.

So if you want a good deal on a small family sedan, wait about a month or so and go visit your friendly neighborhood Toyota dealer. Insist on some official written certification that the recall repairs have been done. I would imagine they'd have to apply some hefty rebates on these cars for awhile until people get comfortable with them again. They won't last, because when you take away the current media-generated hysteria, they're still damn good cars.

[salguod on February 17, 2010 at 10:14 AM]

It should be noted that even at full throttle from highway speeds, the Camry in that C&D test stopped in a shorter distance than a Ford Taurus did.

As I've heard, there are several design decisions that Toyota made that have made this issue worse.

1) They used a material in the accel assemblies that absorbs water and swells, creating more friction and sticking.

2) They did not incorporate a throttle cutout in the drive by wire system that automatically cuts the engine if the brakes and gas are pressed together. The Infiniti C&D tested had that. I understand they are incorporating that now.

3) The push button start on many of these cars requires a long 5 seconds of constant pressing to kill the engine. That's an eternity when your car is running away from you. The Infiniti only required 3 seconds, and if you repeatedly stabbed at it (like someone might do in a panic), it'll kill the engine. not so on the Toyota

4) The gated shifter on some Toyotas requires two separate motions to get it into neutral - up and to the side. You cannot just bump it into neutral. In a panic, having to stop and think about something means it's less likely to happen correctly.

So, a simple material defect in the accelerator mechanism has snowballed because of several other unfortunate design decisions.

[Mochi Mochi on February 17, 2010 at 12:54 PM]

I had heard that the problem with Toyota cars was limited to cars made in US Toyota factories. This does not appear to be entirely true. The article that Cookie linked to did a detailed analysis of the two different type of accelerator pedal assemblies that Toyota sources. One is subject to recall, the other is not. The one that is subject to the recall is manufactured by CTS a US based firm. The other is an older and apparently superior design fabricated by Denso of Japan. The US-CTS parts have been widely distributed - europe also - and were sourced because they are less expensive than the better Denso parts.

While one can't forget the Audi furor, it's hard not to remember all the recalls of US cars that have take place over the years. The 70's and 80's seemed to be a constant period of recall. Whether or not this is an issue of how US manufacturing firms QA their components or not is hard to say. Pintos were exploding in rear end collisions because some wonks at Ford made a calculation that elimination of a few bolts would save the company money.

The take away I perceive here is that a car is the sum of it's parts. Good components are the key to a successful, reliable, and safe car.

One final thing. Toyota design and engineering. I'm not impressed. Oh yes they are reliable and durable... like refrigerators, but Toyota design is always a little jury rigged. There are some things that Toyota gets spot on, but in each design there's some thing that just lacks the elegance of fine detail and commitment to simplicity. I was talking to a design engineer at Toyota. He was comparing Honda and Toyota engines. Saying that Toyota operates with a larger margin of error, thus producing engines that are slightly less powerful but more durable. Personally I don't buy this having seen my hondas last the way they have. But owning Toyotas and Hondas has given me the chance to see what's under the hood at least for older cars circa 1990. There's a huge difference. The Toyota designs have this rube-goldberg quality. Systems on top of systems. There are too many possibilities of failure. And as a designer I can't help but say that they just did not go far enough to get it completely right. The Hondas of the same period have a simple design aesthetic attached to their systems design. You can see how anything extraneous has been designed out. The engineers had the goal of making their systems as simple as possible while at the same time making them perform in a superior manner.

I have no idea of how these two automotive giants have exactly evolved over the past few years, but I'm guessing the cultures of design have not changed that much. As systems have become more complex the challenge to maintain appropriate simplicity become harder and the skills and vision necessary become that much greater.

The short story is that I'm really glad that the gas peddle I control is a simple piece of steel with a spring and a cable attached to it, not a piece of plastic containing a sensor that is then wired to some unknown control and monitoring system. In the analog world failure is often has a sloped curve providing warning and time for repair. In the digital world failure is more likely to be sudden. Of course if the driver is not paying any attention then all bets are off.

[tigerstrypes on February 17, 2010 at 03:54 PM]

Not to be cruel or anything, but this scenario will FINALLY SHUT UP Toyota owners that they have the greatest cars ever, especially Prius owners. Yeah, they're good cars, but do they have to keep reminding me? A Toyota with problems makes the owners feel like they've been raped. They're in denial and can't accept it. AND I WILL RUB IT IN THEIR FACES EVERY TIME I'LL GET THE CHANCE, especially to the Prius owners who think they're saving the world.

This reminds me of the story of my Mom's Corolla 1.8 she and my aunt had in college. My Grandfather was driving it to pick them up from the crowded campus when the thing suddenly accelerated! Frantically, he dodged college kids and smashed it up a guardrail or something. He forgot what caused the sudden acceleration. This was back when Toyotas were real, charismatic cars in which the owners controlled everything on the car and were able to get to the engine. People forget that THEY'RE STILL CARS, MADE BY MAN (sort of), CRAP WILL HAPPEN!

Oh, and the thing about modern-day Toyota owners barely knowing to drive? Doesn't surprise me one bit. If they could, Toyota would make auto-pilot cars and sell millions because their clientele just one decent transportation with all the commodities possible.

P.S. Quickly look for the latest issue of Time (February 22, 2010), The Awesome Column by Joel Stein (My Prius Problem, p.31)
You'll be glad you did. I did.

[Steaming Pile on February 18, 2010 at 06:10 AM]

@tygerstrypes - After dealing with the sort of crap Ford* owners often had to deal with in the 80s and 90s, Toyotas are a breath of fresh air. Hondas, too. Unlike Fords of a certain vintage, Toyotas start every morning without complaint and run until the bodies fall apart. Fords? Not so much.

*Don't know much about today's Ford products. I keep hearing they're good to go. Maybe they finally got the message we Toyota drivers have been pounding in their heads for years.

[Cookie the Dog's Owner on February 18, 2010 at 07:30 AM]

@SP - My parents were dyed-in-the-wool Ford owners, and I have to say that the cars they had the last 10-15 years of their lives were pretty solid and reliable.

[tigerstrypes on February 18, 2010 at 01:54 PM]

Steaming Pile, I got nothing against Toyota (except the Yaris), they've earned their spot in the automotive world and in my heart (well, the classics anyways). But as I said, I'm sick and tired of hearing how awesome a Prius is, how many millions of Corollas were sold in the last minute, and so forth. I get it! You know how douche bags with certain cars constantly brag about the performance (hint: VTEC)? That's what I meant with Toyota, but in a reliability stand point.

It also doesn't help that where I live 4 out of 3 cars are Toyotas. To add insult to injury, most of them are Yaris.

[...m... on February 18, 2010 at 07:31 PM]

...i *like* the yaris, especially race-prepped...

[tigerstrypes on February 19, 2010 at 02:30 PM]

...m..., sucks for you. You'll love it here then. Dumbasses have formed at least 2 known clubs, complete with cars with $1K sound systems, illegal tint jobs, gaudy vinyl stickers, neon lights, "custom" upholstery, Autozone rims, muffler jobs, faux-JDM treatments, spoiler and ground-f/x, and LAMBO DOORS... just like the losers from the Suzuki Aerio club. So you'll fit right in!

A race-prepped Yaris... what a joke. s if I needed like 4 cupholders in a race car. Jeez.

[CJinSD on February 23, 2010 at 05:24 PM]

My sister came to town this weekend. She rented a 2010 Ford Focus. Monday she traded the first Ford Focus for a second one that will hopefully be up to the task of taking her to Los Angeles and back. The idea that Ford thinks its customers should consider this car in a segment with the Mazda 3 and Honda Civic is pretty outrageous. It may well be that the Fusion is just as trouble free as the Camry now, but I won't take Ford or GM seriously until they produce entire model lines that don't have any vehicles that are either glaringly inferior to the competition or painfully terrible products taking advantage of the lack of competition in their segments, like the Econoline van. Instead of mocking Toyota's politically manufactured humiliation, the tigerstrypes of the world should just buy good cars that don't leave them bitter about people who already have them.

[tigerstrypes on February 24, 2010 at 03:52 PM]

Oh for the love of... CJinSD, if I sounded that I have Toyota envy, YOU'RE MISTAKEN.

I already stated that besides the Yaris, I GOT NOTHING AGAINST TOYOTA, but just like in all the other makes, there's a group who won't stop bragging about their make and/or model. I say this because, for example, in the automotive college that I go to, the Toyota diehards talk about their cars as if they were entities or something. Even the VTEC guys seem quiet besides them! And let's not even begin with most Prius owners... It's OK to have some brand pride, but one has to be realistic. With the recalls, they will be toned down a bit. That's all I meant. But I DID NOT MEAN THAT ALL TOYOTA OWNERS ARE FULL OF IT! Just that portion.

Toyotas, while dull, provide what people need: reliable transportation. Yeah they have recalls, but their products are still damn good. Just because one thing went bad, doesn't mean the rest of the vehicle is gonna go bad too. But they're MACHINES MADE BY HUMANS, SOONER OR LATER CRAP WILL HAPPEN. In Toyota's case, it just happens later.

BTW, CJinSD, keep an eye out or the Ford Fiesta, I hear it's pretty good. GM? their upcoming compacts are not my taste, so you and your sister have to check 'em out before renting them. A Focus? What was she thinking?! EVERYONE knows it sucks! XD

Now then, have I made myself clear?

[Rob the Audi Guy on February 25, 2010 at 10:10 AM]

@ Steaming Pile: You can't flood any car with EFI. It needs to be on in order for the injectors to work. So... this hasn't been an issue for say... 20-30 years?

@Tigerstripes: Where do you live? The riced out fad has largely faded away from what it was 10 years ago. I rarely see ridiculous civics anymore.