Nov. 2 Weekly Open Thread
(Quick note from Chris--I will be at the SEMA trade show all week, so my contributions will likely be scanty this week. However, we have lots of good content this week that takes the accessorizing theme so typified by the SEMA show and twists it in a couple of interesting angles, starting with this thought-provoking suggestion for our weekly open thread from Chuck.)
It's the most wonderful time of the year. No, it's not the Holiday
Season, Tax Refund Season, or even Wabbit Season, it's New Car Season! All the makers are rolling out their newest and shiniest
offerings to date, even in these tough economic times.
Some 2010 models are already here, a few will be late to the show, but this is the time for new life in the auto industry. So, as a suggested topic this week, now might also be a good time to reflect and put our noggins to some good use... if we vehicle consumers could change or add any features to this year's crop, what would they be?
We've thrown this idea around a bit, and some would like to see new vehicles a bit easier to service, especially day-to-day annoyances like burned out dash bulbs. Why should we have to use a flashlight to see how fast or how far we're going after dark? Why does it take 10 hours to change out a headlight? Or have to pull the engine to change the spark plugs! Also, why not pre-wire cars for aftermarket kick-@$$ sound systems?
What do you want in a new car?
Let's pretend, for a minute, that Detroit, Stuttgart, Seoul, Tokyo, Maranello, and Bug Tussle
are all listening. This would be a good time to let them know about new
doo-dads, comforts, and safety features that you would gladly fork out your
hard-earned dough for. Provided, of course, that any or all spousal and
family units would approve.
This is your chance to be heard. And, of course, any and all other relevant and semi-sane automotive comments are also welcome.
"The Homer" is courtesy of Wikipedia. The Lambo is eight inches long and usually sits on a shelf.
--That Car Guy (Chuck)
Steaming Pile on November 02, 2009 at 05:38 AM
How about a basic car with hand-cranked windows, acceptable 0-60 times, say, 12 seconds, and 50 MPG without hybrid anything? A/C optional, but easily installable at the dealership for, say, $600. If we can make an engine with 1800cc displacement that makes 130+ HP, we can make one with 1200cc displacement that makes the same 85-90 HP the 1980s K-cars made good use of. Then you can make the whole thing 500 pounds lighter - less steel means better mileage AND lower production cost.
Are we ready for a real economy car?
Cookie the Dog's Owner on November 02, 2009 at 05:55 AM
I would second the call for making "consumables" like light bulbs and such easier to change out. I also think every car should have an instantaneous/trip-average MPG display. I have one in the GTI, and while I don't usually drive with a conscious intent to pump up the number, I'm sure it has at least a subconscious effect on my driving.
The Hyundai Accent I did a test drive on a couple months ago is pretty close to the "basic car" SP is describing above. One interesting thing about it is that every Accent comes off the line pre-wired for a stereo system, with speakers and connectors in place. (Probably simplifies the supply chain and production process to do it that way--you only need one style of wiring harness, and they all go in the exact same way.) All you need to do is drop in the head unit and you're good to go. Same is true for the AC; the compressor bolts right on to the engine and I'm told a competent shade-tree mechanic can handle the installation.
...m... on November 02, 2009 at 06:27 AM
...ford posted a billion dollars in profit this morning...
Steaming Pile on November 02, 2009 at 06:30 AM
Also, the "basic a la carte" vehicle should come in more than just the one (subcompact) size. Research tells me that there was once a time when you could order up a full-size Chevy with no frills. Six cylinders making around 110 HP, three on the tree, and not much else. Lots of these ended up in fleets.
An average-sized family could ride in the Basic Chevy, but I'm not so sure about the Hyundai Accent.
That Car Guy on November 02, 2009 at 07:46 AM
I'd like to see the return of ample gauges in an instrument cluster. The number of dials in front of us are dropping steadily. Right now, you are lucky to get a speedometer, tach, fuel gauge, and temp meter.
I'd like to see the return of an oil pressure gauge, volt or amp meter, and a clock that does not share the display with whatever radio station we are on. Change your radio and lose your clock, the second-most looked-at instrument in the car? Nonsense!
The Avanti had 8 gauges in front of the driver, and that was in 1963. I hope we have evolved since then.
Chris Mallow on November 02, 2009 at 08:45 AM
Is it too much to ask for some distinctive styling cues on cars again? I have griped about this before, I know...but as much as greenies hate SUVs and trucks and complain about how they're all identically-styled gas-wasters and carbon-spewers, I myself am in no way motivated to drive a little underpowered hybrid or hatchback or sedan that has the same 4-speed automatic, 1.3L I4 engine, body design, brakes, handling, seating, and cargo room as every other underpowered hybrid, hatchback, or sedan by any other car company. (The car companies are already quick to embrace this blandness...hello, Nissan "Cube".)
I guess this would lead to my final BIG request: if you're going to make me hate driving because I can't drive something interesting and will be stuck with the same ugly green junk that everyone else has (and pay MORE for the "privilege"), then build a system so that I don't have to care. I would argue that the biggest issues with cars, in terms of emissions, safety, and fuel efficiency, all stem from the fact that they're still driven by human beings. Invest in the infrastructure to make the car drive itself, such that the car knows where it is and where it's going, and where all the other cars near it are and are going. Government could provide the additional infrastructure to provide realtime updates regarding construction and traffic patterns (which would likely be much smoother anyway, since no humans would be making mistakes and driving the cars), which the states' DOTs already know anyway from their own monitoring. The computer power is there and available. Some companies have already designed electronic "drive-by-wire" systems similar to that used in modern aircraft, others have developed autobraking and radar technologies, and speed control/cruise has been around for ages. We already have many fairly robust wireless systems that could be beefed up to carry critical data systemwide to all the endpoints. Put in an intelligent computer with sensors to monitor speed, location, road lines, and proximities, and it should be a snap. I would bet the house that such a system, if properly designed, would be able to drive a car in a safer, more ecofriendly, and more fuel-efficient way than any human could. Who cares about understeer/oversteer, brake feel, acceleration, torque, horsepower, or any of that when you're not even driving? If my car will simply be a generic box to get me from Point A to Point B, give me an incentive to accept it.
CJinSD on November 02, 2009 at 09:01 AM
That Car Guy,
I'm afraid that it will take something drastic to bring about a return to complete instrumentation. In most cars, the temperature 'gauge' is just a glorified idiot light. It is actually damped so that it has 4 modes. It will show overheating as an elevated reading. It will show a cold engine immediately upon start up. It will sit in the middle of its range during all manner of operating conditions. Sophisticated have a 4th mode where it warms to the middle just as the coolant actually does. The centered needle is generally all you'll get from an operating car though. This is due to customer complaints. Some people were bothered enough to complain that their car didn't sit at the same temperature that their friend's similar model did, so the manufacturers eliminated this possibility by replacing the old analogue(real) guages with ones that receive a finite number of digital commands. As I said, essentially they're now idiot lights. We'd might as well try to appreciate the efficiency of not having fake ammeters, fake oil pressure displays, and fake oil thermometers.
Anthony Cagle on November 02, 2009 at 09:54 AM
I can second the idea of a simple high-MPG car, but I doubt it will happen. I believe that just the basic safety and comfort equipment these days make them heavier than they used to be so you're not going to get a 40+ mpg gas car (i.e., non-hybrid or diesel). My Spousal Unit has a 1997 Civic HX that averages ca. 43 for mostly highway, and whenever she gets a slight urge for a better car she gets discouraged because nothing gets much into even the 30s anymore unless it's a hybrid. And hers is pretty basic: 5-speed stick, no AC.
I suppose if I were going to get a new car, I'd like a lot of leeway in choosing options. Personally, I'd prefer to put more dough into the drive train and handling and less in creature comforts.
But then, I'd probably find some used Lust of mine, like one of the new GTOs or something.
Bill T. on November 02, 2009 at 09:56 AM
I have an engine question. Every, or almost every automotive engine for many decades has been a four stroke. Two strokes were always relegated to lawnmowers, mopeds (that sounded like a five pound bee), and some motorcycles.
From an engineering standpoint, using current metallurgical techniques and lubricants that have improved a lot over the years, would a two stroke be practical for smaller commuter vehicle? Also, I noticed a recent magazine write-up on using lasers for ignition rather than spark plugs. I would assume that a laser would give almost total fuel efficiency, thereby reducing the undesirable side effects of combustion. It also might negate the need for a catalytic converter.
That Car Guy on November 02, 2009 at 10:12 AM
Bill T., it's my understanding that 2-strokes will not meet the emissions standards here, or anywhere else that has them. Even dirt bikes and lawn mowers have gone to 4-strokes. Want to see dirty air? Please go to a foreign country that still has 2-strokes and see the masks over people's faces.
Diesels are the new rage. They have finally been cleaned up, and new technology is on the horizon.
Steaming Pile on November 02, 2009 at 10:12 AM
Using lasers for spark plugs would kill the spark plug industry. You'd never need to change them. Plus, you could easily control them with the onboard computer.
As for whether one would still need a catalytic converter, most engines nowadays are pretty good at burning gasoline completely, so I'd imagine the content of emissions would depend a lot on the impurities in the gasoline itself.
Tommy's Dad on November 02, 2009 at 11:13 AM
4 comfortable seats, good fuel efficiency, controls that don't make me reach halfway across the car, good sight lines especially into the blind spots, and at an affordable price. Oh yeah, and good A/C, because summers around here are hell. That's pretty much all I need and would ask for.
I test drove a Saab 900 Turbo the other day, and while the car had way too many problems and concerns for me to buy at $1200 (no maintenance history, headliner trashed, electrical funkiness, terribly rough idle, some banging noises coming from the right rear of the cabin), the ergonomics of the stereo and HVAC controls being right off of the gauge cluster impressed me. Interesting car, and I'd love to see some of those sorts of touches put to use in a new car instead of the massive, button-crammed center consoles you see these days.
Chris Meirose on November 02, 2009 at 12:27 PM
Get rid of the push-button everything. Give me a knob, lever dial - anything other than a push button. I don't want to drive my remote control.
Georg Felis on November 02, 2009 at 12:57 PM
What I want is a car that I can do the following on without special tools. Perhaps if the CEO of the auto company were to take the newly developed model, park it in a muddy field in December, and have the senior management (in suits) do the following to it:
1) Change the tire using only the jack and tools that come with the car
2) Change the oil, air filter, spark plugs, antifreeze, windshield wiper blades, and transmission fluid.
3) With a limited number of tools, replace the brake calipers, water pump, spark plug wires, and headlights.
4) While wearing a coat and gloves and driving at night down a muddy and dangerous road, change the channel on the radio and adjust the defroster.
At the end of the exercise, the senior management may possibly have a few improvements to offer in their nice new car that would make us all happier consumers.
gullyborg on November 02, 2009 at 12:57 PM
You know what I want more than anything else?
I want all the high-tech "features" of a car - things like automatic door locks when car is in gear, etc. - to be completely at the control of the user through a simple menu. This is easy and cheap. The cars all have computers. Most cars have some sort of screen display. Adding in a simple user interface and some basic command programming is nothing.
I hate the fact that my Toyota automatically relocks the doors 15 seconds after I use the remote to unlock them. I unlocked them on purpose. Leave them that way. But there is no way to turn off this "feature."
Worse, my in-law's Ford will automatically lock the doors after a set period of time if the car in in park with the engine running. They learned this when they left the car to get a paper out of a machine with the engine running and got locked out. Yes, we figured out how to disable this, but it took a bizarre combination of steps and instructions that may as well have been heiroglyphs (and I am an engineer with a law degree, not an idiot).
All these "features" may have merit, but for God's sakes, give the drivers some control and the ability to choose!
Other things I hate:
"Passive" alarms that go off if you leave a passenger in the car and the passenger then tries to open the door.
"Panic" buttons on key fobs that are too easily pushed.
Daytime running lights I can't turn off (having spent years on military bases, I know damn well that it is dangerous to approach a guard post at night if you can't turn off your lights!).
Automatic transmissions that only come in a "sport shift" version. Some of us think automatics are meant to simplify driving - if we wanted complexity, we'd stick with stick.
Sensors that try to warn us a "passenger" isn't buckled in - like when I put a bag of groceries on the passenger seat.
gullyborg on November 02, 2009 at 01:04 PM
Also, speaking of automatics, how about making automatic the "standard" and charging extra for the stick shift?
There is no reason why a stick should cost less than an automatic. You don't pay for the automatic IN ADDITION TO the stick. You are swapping one for the other. If you get an automatic, you don't have the cost of the clutch or flywheel - and a torque converter isn't a high-dollar item. If building a car from scratch using mail order performance parts, I can put in a TH700 automatic for less than the cost of a performance-comparable 4 speed stick.
Bryan C on November 02, 2009 at 01:15 PM
I want manufacturers to release their diagnostic codes. It would be a boon to smaller auto repair shops, and I'm sure aftermarket manufacturers could come up some neat consumer accessories, too.
I also agree with CM: Better design, fewer buttons. And, no, touch-screens are not an improvement. Common controls should fall easily to hand, and the driver should be able to distinguish them and operate them without having to look away from the road.
Ryan on November 02, 2009 at 01:28 PM
I want a User Interface Control and better communications with my car computer.
I'm sure it has been mentioned before but I would like to see a network port under my car dash. With a simple crossover cable it could be networked to my laptop and I could call up a on board configuration webpage (like my router). That way I could set up all little annoying things I hate so that the user interface would be more to my liking. I don't need the seat belt warning thank you very much, but I don't mind the light warning, but only need it for 5 seconds. Do you want the radio to play after the engine is turned off until you open the door... set it up that way or not. Maybe even have it keyed to different keys so my wife could set it up different. It doesn't have to be on any super slick menu system that is programed into the radio or anything use a simple text page with variable pull downs. Only those that care would go there.
This webpage could also report data taken by the black box... Average gas mileage driven, when the next oil change is needed what error code the engine is giving and what it means. It sucks not knowing stuff that the computer under the dash knows but wouldn't tell me. However I don't need to know all that crap all the time. Just once in a while when I want or need it.
tigerstrypes on November 02, 2009 at 01:31 PM
I read old ads that you SAVED MONEY for choosing a model with less accessories. The less, the more you save. I think it was either a Plymouth Roadrunner of Dodge Super Bee (can anyone confirm?). How the heck am I supposed to save money when every car has power-everything, rims, tinted windows, spoilers and crap?
Nowadays, if I want a performance-oriented, machine, I have to pay MORE. For example: a drag-race (and roadrace, it's been done) package Dodge Challenger is around mid-$30K and is 1000 lbs lighter. I'm not doing math, but I'm sure the extra cost paid for a peppier engine (you can choose the 5.9 Magnum!!), better brakes, suspension and gears, manual transmission have been more than offset by the removal of airbags, backseat, sound deadener and all the other crap that has been removed!
Make 'em without all the exotic body panels, drop-out crossmember and rollcage (but sell 'em through dealers), but with the 3,260+ lbs of the racecar, all for around the price of a new Mustang (again, I'm not doing the math, the price could be lower). Cheaper, if you order the 5.9 Magnum instead of the 5.7/6.1 engine.
With the money saved, I could pay insurance!
I chose the Challenger because I have more info on it, but the same concept may apply for other makes, like Mercedes-Benz and Porsche!
You guys get my point, right? Could I be wrong? If so, feel free to correct me.
fred2 on November 02, 2009 at 02:41 PM
How about cars with head room, some have head room - unless you have the moon roof - which takes it all away, and which you can't avoid.
Seriously have you tried buying a car without a crappy moon roof once you get out of the base models? You can't even *order* them.
And for those of us who like stick shifts, why is it only the base line models in some companies have sticks (and american compnaies have LAME manual trannies)? Seriously, the nice model with powerful engine and sports suspension doesn't have stick as an option... eh?
Charlie on November 02, 2009 at 03:27 PM
+1 on the hand cranked windows. They're cheaper _*AND*_ you can roll the window down to equalize pressure if you accidentally pull a Teddy K.
Oh, and bring back vent wings. I know leaving them off improves the per unit profit by 10 or 15 cents, but c'mon guys.
Charlie
John B on November 02, 2009 at 03:31 PM
Let's have a very nice (semi-luxury) small car.
My wife has a Mini...it's great fun, well made and has a decent interior. It seems to be rare out there.
She's looking for a new car but will probably buy another new Mini because of the lack of nice small cars out there.
She doesn't want to drive a strippo. As she points out, she's worked too long and too hard to drive something with fuzzy burlap carpeting and plastics out of a Yugo.
Come on guys, wake up. Small cars aren't just for entry level buyers and pizza delivery cars anymore.
Anthony Cagle on November 02, 2009 at 04:20 PM
"Small cars aren't just for entry level buyers and pizza delivery cars anymore."
That's probably ripe for its own thread topic right there. That's been the default for the US market for decades, I wonder if it's changing. I tend to think it's going to remain a niche market for some time though.
I guess Ford is going to try its Fiesta here again, but will it be the good European one or another crappy little econobox?
Smilin' Jack on November 02, 2009 at 07:03 PM
I want all the stalks, except the turn signals, OFF the steering colum. I want a knob on the dash that you pull out for the headlights and parking lights...parking lights on first notch, headlights on second. Turn the knob clockwise to brighten the panel lights. Turn it all the way clockwise to turn on the dome lights.
I want another knob next to the light knob to control the windshield wipers. Turning it clockwise shortens the delay or makes them go faster.
I want a floor mounted headlight dimmer switch that can be switched with my left foot.
Not only that, but I want every car I might conceivably buy or drive to have these controls set up identically.
If they must get creative, let them do it with the cruise control.
Smilin' Jack on November 02, 2009 at 07:18 PM
Oh, and all pickup trucks should come with swing out vent windows. It should be federal law.
After baling hay all afternoon, no one wants to hop in a hot truck cab and wait for the air conditioner to catch up. It's our right as hard-working Americans to open those vent windows until they blast directly into our faces and let a 60mph breeze of free American air cool our overworked selves. Do the guys who design these things think we're all Agri-business executives who work in suits and ties...or too prissy to let our hair get mussed?