May 29 Weekend Open Thread
I have been sadly remiss in posting open threads lately, but if anybody wants to discuss anything generally automotive-related this weekend, this is the place to do it.
I do have one suggested topic, and it relates to Anthony Cagle's comment in our our Pontiac Round Table:
"I hope the Solstice, G8, and the recent GTO stay around or come back in some form or other."
That received some follow-up comments from our readership, and I think it's an interesting topic to discuss. The demise of a brand does not mean that all of its models will automatically disappear. Which of the models from the brands currently slated to disappear would you like to see retained--and why and how would you like to see it happen? My thoughts after the jump.
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I'm not particularly worried about retaining the Hummer models, and I continue to hope that Saab survives in some form under new ownership. So that leaves us with a few interesting models that I hope GM manages to retain.
Pontiac G8: The G8 is one of the best cars GM has sold in recent memory, and it would be tragic if the G8 was lost along with GM.
Today's Chevy Impala and Impala SS are decent cars, much better than their predecessors; but the Impala nameplate is just begging to be attached to the G8. The G8 is a full-size, rear-wheel-drive sedan in the classic mold--big, handsome, and, with the right trim, fast. It's a real Impala in a way that the last two generations haven't been. As an Impala aficianado, I'm pleading with you, GM--please make the G8 the new Impala.
Pontiac G8 ST: And, of course, the now-canceled two-seat G8 ute should be the new Chevy El Camino. Frankly, it should have been an El Camino all along. Get with the program, GM; everybody knew this car should be an El Camino.
Pontiac Vibe: Those in the know have long been aware of the fantastic used-car bargain the Pontiac Vibe represents. It's essentially a highly useful five-door Toyota Matrix, with Toyota reliability married with Pontiac depreciation. There's nothing wrong with the car but its deprecated badge. It's a natural to become a Chevrolet. Perhaps, in a nod to its NUMMI Corolla-clone predecessor from the 1980s, a Chevy Nova?
Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky: The Solstice/Sky aren't the best pure sports cars on the market, but they are impressively good nonetheless. They handle very well, look great (especially in coupe form), provide impressive straight-line grunt in GXP/Red Line form, and offer up the pleasures of open-top motoring. I've long been a fan of the donor Opel/Vauxhall, and it would seem a shame that we would let a genuinely interesting and quick GM small roadster wither on the vine.
The easy answer is to make the car a performance Chevy, a little brother to the Corvette and Camaro, with the GXP/Red Line presented as an SS model. But what about adding this car to the Cadillac line?
Bear with me a moment. Cadillac competitors BMW, Audi, Porsche, and Mercedes all offer small roadsters, and with the Allante and XLR Cadillac has at least a little history of open-roofed performance. A quick, curvaceous little roadster could only help in the fight to attract young, hip customers; and a Cadillac Solstice-V (with 260 horsepower and a turbocharger) would look awfully nice in a showroom next to the CTS-V and STS-V, and XLR-V.
Saturn Vue: I can't work up a lot of passion for the Vue, but it is a decent small SUV and would slot in below the rest of GM's SUV line. One could probably make an argument for the salvation of the Aura and Astra as well, but I can work up even less passion for those two.
Does anybody else have any thoughts?
--Chris Hafner
Chuck on May 29, 2009 at 11:16 AM
I like the idea of keeping the G8, but why not move it upscale and call it the Bel Air or Caprice? Yes, the Bel Air was a low trim level at one point, but most people now know that the real Bel Air is some of the most affluent, expensive real estate in the country. 750 Bel Air Road was the home of TV's "The Beverly Hillbillies", not Beverly Hills.
Yay El Camino!
If the Solstice returns as a Cadillac, it should receive a major facelift and other changes... have we forgotten the Cimarron yet? LOL
I feel the Vue is too far along in its current design to continue under another brand. Maybe the next generation Vue, Vibe, Astra, and Aura could compete in other GM divisions, or even as an Opel-type sub-division. But I feel some time to let the current models disappear might be a good thing.
&%@$# Hummer.
GM also needs to replace their hideous small pickup line.
Rebadging the current models might be more GM bad thinking. But fresh (re)designs with new names might help GM with their comeback. They need a fresh start now.
Chris Hafner on May 29, 2009 at 11:31 AM
Chuck: "I like the idea of keeping the G8, but why not move it upscale and call it the Bel Air or Caprice?"
And run alongside the existing Impala, you mean? That feels a bit too duplicative to me. And "Impala" is both a more iconic name and more descriptive of the G8 to me than Bel Air or Caprice. The G8 is big, handsome, and fast - that says Impala to me.
Chuck: "If the Solstice returns as a Cadillac, it should receive a major facelift and other changes... have we forgotten the Cimarron yet? LOL"
Heh. It would definitely be nice if it received a facelift to match the rest of the Cadillac lineup, as long as it's possible to do so and keep the car attractive - the Solstice is a pretty attractive car. I thought about the Cimarron comparison, but I'm not sure it's apt here. The problem with the Cimarron was that it was a J-car sold at Cadillac prices. The Solstice is an effective, quality car in the way the J-car was not; and it wouldn't need to be more expensive than it is. I don't think it'd be out of place in the Cadillac lineup - I think it's more core to what Cadillac is trying to become than the DTS or the Escalade, for example.
Chuck: "I feel the Vue is too far along in its current design to continue under another brand."
How do you mean? It's too distinctively "Saturn?"
Chuck: "GM also needs to replace their hideous small pickup line. "
I think GM needs to *have* a small pickup line. The Colorado is bigger and more expensive than it needs to be. Your post on the Ford Ranger got me thinking about small pickups, and I think it's outrageous how GM has abandoned that market. Well, okay, outrageous is a strong word.
Chuck: "Rebadging the current models might be more GM bad thinking. But fresh (re)designs with new names might help GM with their comeback. They need a fresh start now."
Making multiple, redundant clones of mediocre vehicles was GM bad thinking. But this is different from that - this is saving competent, attractive cars that would be alive if not for Pontiac/Saturn being killed off. They wouldn't be duplicated or redundant, they would just continue to exist. GM needs as much competent product as it can right now, and keeping existing mediocre product and letting good product die would seem like a mistake.
Chuck on May 29, 2009 at 01:13 PM
OK, rename the G8 the Impala and add the Bel Air or Caprice moniker as the top-of-the-line trim model. It's been done before. Forget the Biscayne.
Yay El Camino!
Chris: "I thought about the Cimarron comparison, but I'm not sure it's apt here." Have you sat in a Solstice? The cheap interior panels would embarrass Pontiac (Wait... they did!). Just think what these Plebian digs would do to the upscale image Cadillac is trying to achieve. Spend a few bucks and get a nice interior, at least. Have you seen the new Audi/VW Roadster that's right around the corner?
The Vue was a dated design when Saturn got it. How many years are left in its life? When the Vue is redesigned, which should be soon, then let another division have it. 4-5 years is about right for a design life, the Vue's about there. Does a dealer need to stock parts for a vehicle that only has a year or two left in its cycle? They could cut some costs there.
I feel that the time GM would take to launch these fine cars as other GM marques would make them even longer in the tooth than they already are. If these cars are so admired, and they are, then the next generations should even be better. If these cars could be placed into other divisions tomorrow, then great... but does GM move quickly on anything? Remember... it took GM 18 months to cut the rear wheel wells open on the 1991 Caprice!
I want GM to survive. But they are going to have to jump-frog the competition, not play catch-up as they have been trying to do. And as good as these cars are, the next generations should only be better!
Anthony Cagle on May 29, 2009 at 01:59 PM
I would tend to think they'd not want to replace the current Impala since it (I may be thinking of a different model) seems to be comparing very well with the imports. But the G8 would rock as like a Monte Carlo, 442-ish kinda thing. Back when they had some bad-ass sedans.
I do tend to think the El Camino. . . .eh, I have a feeling its time has passed. The niche sees to be filled by crossovers and extended cab pickups. But you never know, I guess.
Jeff Weimer on May 29, 2009 at 05:30 PM
Apparently GM already sells a version of the G8 overseas as a Caprice, so the tooling and detail work is already paid for. Let's do it!
Solstice as a Cadillac? A bit of a stretch, they would need to do extensive work to make it, well, work. It could be a Chevy with a lot less money into it, and it would look (to my eye at least) a lot like the volt prototype.
Pontiac Vibe could survive as a Chevy, easy.
Bring back the El Camino? Why not, it would make my dad very happy :)
epilonious on May 29, 2009 at 07:33 PM
The Internet scuttlebutt I've heard against moving several of these cars into Chevy is that competition would drown the brand out.
The Vibe will fight with the HHR and it's cruze-based replacement, the Orlando, and the Vue already has Chevy badging, it's called the Equinox.
The G8 could become the new caprice... but it seems that Chevy/Corvette is reluctant to allow V8's bigger than 5-liter's onto the lots if it's not in a bonafide ladder-framed truck or the Corvette itself.
I feel like all the old pontiac non-chaffe should be given to Buick or something. The Enclave is selling like crazy to the 20-somethings and 30-somethings that no car company can seem to pin down, so placing G8s on the lots as the replacement for the Lucerne and giving Buick sporting intentions that don't suffer the Caddy-tax would be fabulous. The vue could also become a less plasticky/tacky well styled version of the Equinox... just like the Enclave is a less plasticky/tacky version of the Outlook/Traverse/Acadia.
The vibe... Shoot, I dunno if you could call it a skylark or a cutlass or something. I can't think of any Buicks that were wagonish/hatchbutty except the Roadmaster. Buick pathmaster perhaps?
Sillypickle on May 29, 2009 at 09:16 PM
Anthony: you are thinking of the Malibu, not the Impala.
I was going to give my thoughts on this whole thing since I am posting anyways, but then I realized they would just be echoing Chris's initial ideas...
Tommy's Dad on May 29, 2009 at 10:10 PM
G8 as Impala? Check.
G8 ST as an El Camino? Check!
Solstice/Sky as a Caddy? Check, I guess...maybe a mini version of the XLR? Dunno where else in the remaining GM portfolio it would fit.
The Vue is pretty expendable in the face of the new Equinox and its GMC clone, but I understand they are/were working on a plug-in hybrid version that had very good fuel economy. Seems reasonable to shoehorn that system into the new Equinox as a Hybrid model.
Surprised no one's mentioned the Saturn Astra, especially given the hatchback love around here. Given that Opel is on the auction block I guess its fate is up in the air too, which is a shame because with a little love and attention I bet they could use it as a replacement for the sad little Aveo and make a good Kia Spectra killer out of it (not exactly a world-class goal, but GM *needs* an entry-level car that doesn't suck, and it's not like the Astra is getting any attention as a Saturn model so it couldn't hurt to try).
Vibe...I dunno, since they restyled it those blind spots just look horrendous. Still looks better than the HHR though, but then I hate the looks of the HHR so there you go.
Anthony Cagle on May 31, 2009 at 04:04 PM
I agree with replacing the existing FWD Impala with the G8. The current one just seems. . . .blah. Yippee, throw a bigger engine in their basic FWD sedan, big whoop. I also wonder if they think the Solstice would compete against the Corvette. But I could see making a Caddie out of it. It could use some upgrades.
Tommy's Dad on May 31, 2009 at 09:57 PM
So the weekend is basically over and it looks like most everyone agrees on a few basic principles: keep the G8 as an Impala or something similar, bring the G8 ST in as an El Camino, and rework the Solstice/Sky into a Cadillac of some sort.
Now, with Monday looming and GM probably declaring bankruptcy, I'm curious to know if anyone has any thoughts about that. Good news? Bad news? Will people still buy from a bankrupt car maker? Are they buying from Chrysler as they get closer to merging with Fiat (which seems to be the end goal of that bankruptcy process- although, really, what did Chrysler have that folks wanted to buy anyways, bankrupt or no?). The Chrysler-Fiat thing has been discussed previously, so I'm curious what the many great minds here have to say about the GM situation.
My own thought is mostly a I hope that, whatever happens, the Volt project isn't affected. I know there's plenty of rational (and irrational!) arguments for and against the Volt, but for my own part I really want to see it succeed. Not necessarily for rational reasons, but because I like the *idea* of a car that can drive me to work and home 5 days a week without using any gas, and still has range enough for a road trip to wherever. I kinda like the look of it. I have, you might say, a tiny, just-opening seed of lust for one. And if that's wrong, then I don't wanna be right.
David Colborne on May 31, 2009 at 10:39 PM
Tommy's Dad - From what I've seen of the Chrysler numbers, nobody was buying from them before the bankruptcy proceedings. That hasn't changed much. As for GM... *shrug* I'm not sure if people are going to buy more or less from them than they were before. I think you'll find a lot of people will abandon the brand due to warranty or support concerns; at the same time, you'll probably find a lot of bargain hunters moving in to pick up some ephemeral bankruptcy discount. I personally suspect both groups will cancel out, at least in volume, though I suspect dealers will be VERY disappointed with the change in buying audience.
I don't think the Vibe would make a good Buick, but I do think it'd make a solid Chevy, especially in sort of a "just above the Cobalt" segment. The HHR is terrible, so I don't mind losing it to the Chevy Matrix. I suspect Opel's sell-off to Magna will knock out a lot of options here for GM; something tells me the Sky/Solstice are going to disappear rather quickly.
As for Hummer, I think they COULD be salvaged. Honestly, they're the only brand that says "off-road" anywhere near as credibly as Jeep or Land Rover. Trouble is, GM's been doing a fine job of trying to neuter that brand image and drown it in a sea of mediocrity; lucky for them, DaimlerBenz had a head start with their castration of Jeep (Liberty? Patriot?! Gah!). Land Rover is far too expensive to step into the territory that Jeep and Hummer should be playing in. I think that whichever brand remembers what it's supposed to be about first will be the one that nails down that small but still quite profitable niche.
That Car Guy on June 01, 2009 at 08:23 AM
After the announcement this morning about GM's filing, the notice that 2,600 dealers being closed sure hits home. That's an average of over 50 in every state.
But I feel the real math that's been largely forgotten is that somebody is going to make the cars that GM will not. When car sales return to normal, will the void be filled by Ford, Chrysler, the imports, or all three? Or can GM eventually raise their volume in the divisions that they will have left? I think these numbers will be very interesting as time goes on.
...m... on June 01, 2009 at 12:22 PM
...last night i parked near a silver sky...i'd never seen one in that livery before, and at first glance i didn't even recognise it - my eyes saw a baby corvette...
Tom on June 01, 2009 at 01:02 PM
The G8 is a rebadged Holden Commodore SS manufactured in Australia. I haven't read what will become of Holden, now that it is a Gub-Mint Motors subsidiary. When I was over in Sydney last fall I saw a Holden Commodore "ute" version with a Chevy Bowtie on the grill. My host told me that the Bowtie meant it was the performance version of the Commodore. I haven't seen this anywhere else so I don't know if this is true. Having just looked through the Pontiac line-up though, I'd move the G8 and the Solstice elsewhere in whats left of GM. Goodness, when did they do away with the Bonneville? Why had they not brought back the Firebird/Trans-Am along with the Camaro? They must have decided to end it a while ago based on the looks of G3/G5 and Torrent.
Eddie on June 01, 2009 at 01:19 PM
As far as making the Solstice/Sky a Caddy...ok, but only if the price point is near the same. One of the attractions of the Solstice is it's price tag. Adding $10,000 or more to the sticker price with a Caddy nameplate makes no sense to me.
Fderfler on June 01, 2009 at 01:46 PM
Wow.. I don't think I've read anything so naive in a long time. Obama castigated the car companies for "making cars no one wanted to buy" while ignoring the impact of the government's CAFE standards on car design. Now, the car companies face 35 mpg CAFE standards and they no longer have the escape hole for light duty trucks.
Folks, I love it that you love these vehicles, but practically everything you love is doomed. We have crossed into a new dimension. The "G" in GM wants vehicles that are GREEN and that force people to pay for alternative forms of energy. You can expect huge taxes on motor fuel (e.g. cap and trade) that will kill off a huge percentage of the car models you love.
Obama said today that he didn't want to "run GM"... except on the "fundamental issues". Fundamental #1 is to reduce oil consumption. That means lightweight vehicles. Lightweight means small unless you want to go to exotic materials.
Your beloved Pontiac G8 hovers around 4000 pounds. Wave goodbye.
The Pontiac Solstice technically has more chance of survival, but NOT with a 260HP engine! Picture two squirrels in a wheel for the engine. Despite its good looks, the number of Solstice vehicles sold is minuscule, so there is no exec who will stump for this car either.
As I said, I love it that you love these cars, but your wishes are built on sand. The future looks like a bleak place for car lovers who can't afford a Tesla. What's coming will be more Prius, Civic, or Insight-inspired than G8.
Ryan on June 01, 2009 at 01:50 PM
I do love the G8. I'd snap up a GXP right now if I had the money. Here's hoping GM slaps a Chevy bowtie on it and keeps it around until I get a raise...
Well, it's fun to dream anyway.
Jake on June 01, 2009 at 01:53 PM
Given the steadily increasing hispanic population in the US, bringing back the "Nova" nameplate is probably a bad idea...
Stan on June 01, 2009 at 02:37 PM
As a Vibe owner myself, I can attest it is a very good car. If GM was to replace the HHR with the Vibe as a Chevrolet they would be doing themselves a huge favor. It would also be great if they COULD find a new home for the G8, but I admit I don't know where it would fit - particularly if they had a rule (which they might need) that any Pontiac model kept would have to displace another GM model. So - what GM models do we not like that a Pontiac might displace?
dennymack on June 01, 2009 at 03:19 PM
You are all wrong. In keeping with GM tradition, the solstice either needs to be killed, because it is exciting, or they can turn it into a Caddy.
If they go Caddy with it, they will have to install acres of plastichrome, and maybe replace the functional drop top with one of those faux convertible vinyl-over-steel coupe abominations. The stated reason for eliminating the convertible top will be so that they can add "opera windows" to the non-functional faux rear seats.
Anything else would not befit a car company that turns to the federal government for BETTER management.
dennymack on June 01, 2009 at 03:22 PM
I forgot to mention, the Vibe will be dumped, but they will bring back the Aztec and market it under the Hummer moniker, hence the Aztec Hummer.
This will in turn give rise to a new offering at Tijuana night clubs.
djl4570 on June 01, 2009 at 04:34 PM
In 2002 I rented a car at the Toronto Airport. I walked out to the lot and found myself looking at the most butt ugly minivan ever conceived. A Pontiac Aztec. OK. It's just a rental. Like a hotel room. I was surprised at how drivable this thing was around town. More headroom than my 4Runner, seated four adults comfortably and provided amusement to all due to its homely appearance. The real driving test came the following weekend. I hopped on the freeway to go see Niagara Falls. The Aztec had excellent freeway handling. The weather on the way back was wet. Toronto weather doughnut wet and I was outside the hole. The Aztec didn't squirrel around, it tracked straight, wind buffeting was far less than I expected, the wipers worked very well. That car earned my respect, and a few months later in a another blinding rainstorm outside of Kitchener I would have preferred the Aztec to any other car I had rented up there.
Whitehall on June 01, 2009 at 04:50 PM
If the zero percent financing from GMAC had been in place last fall, I would have been the proud owner of a G8. I loved my 2004 GTO but needed four doors. (I bought a VW CC instead.)
Of course, if GM made the G8 an Impala, they would cheapen the interior with lower quality materials.
Keep it the same and call it an Impala Super Sport (SS).
John Capozzi on June 01, 2009 at 06:18 PM
The demographic you want buying your fun and powerful RWD sedan don't WANT an Impala, the name has too much negative weight at this point. And those buyers that would want an "Impala" are better served by Buick anyway. There's a reason why Pontiac (RIP) didn't badge the G8 a Bonneville, you know.
Just about any of the classic GM model names has been used and reused to the point of being comical, and nearly devalued. There's only a few left with any cachet, and a weak cachet at that.
Hell, get some use out of those European/Australian marque and model names. Stick an Opel or Holden badge (or at least model name) on the product, and sell it at Chevy dealerships. People will buy them.
Tim on June 01, 2009 at 06:30 PM
I loved the Aztek! Ended up buying THREE of them. One for my son, and two for us. Had lots of neat features and they were very inexpensive. I really didn't care if they were ugly. Lots of room, very comfortable to drive in town and on long trips, good gas mileage, very quiet inside, and really cheap to buy. I would have bought another if they were still making them. Bought a Saturn Outlook, and it's nice except the gas mileage could be better. Drove it over 5,600 miles on our vacation last year, and it was great. GM's problem was not so much their cars as their bad reputation. I think a lot of the Japanese stuff is overpriced crap. Get a KIA and get the same thing as a the Japanese for ten grand cheaper.