Salt + Cars = Stress
Ever read Sophie's Choice? Because that's kinda how I feel right now.
Growing up in the Midwest, I've had the pleasure opportunity to experience all the joys of winter, in full. Playing in the white powder is great, as John DeLorean could attest (the charges were dropped!--Chris H.), but I'm talking about snow. Lots and lots of snow. Snow is generally pretty great. The reduced traction allows you to drive like a stunt man; sliding sideways around corners, doing donuts, J-turns, and pretending to be a rally driver. However, it's not really the snow I'm concerned about. Seeing as how our country caters to the lowest common denominator, we cater to people who don't have snow tires by salting every square inch of the roads.
From an auto enthusiast's perspective, I hate this. The salt corrodes everything on my vehicle, and half of the time my entire car is covered in white haze. Milwaukee is even worse than usual. They use double the amount of road salt per mile than most cities in the Midwest. Ignoring the whole concept of the government demanding your money to pay for salt that ruins your vehicles, I'm now faced with a choice: What to drive this winter? I've been so stressed about this choice I figured I'd ask for your advice.
In one corner, we have my minty fresh 1989 Honda Prelude, which I covered here. In the other corner, we have my 1992 Subaru SVX, covered by Chris here.
Now, from a purely technical standpoint, the Subaru wins hands down. It
has all-wheel drive, anti-lock brakes, and tons of other features that
make it a superior choice. However, the Subaru is also starting to
rust. I see rust poking out from underneath body panels and creeping up from
the rear wheel wells. The rear quarter panel was also damaged from a
driver who doesn't believe in using turn signals. Another winter on
this car would be brutal, as the rust would probably get pretty bad.
The Prelude, by comparison, is only front-wheel drive. However, when equipped with some fresh snow tires it would be able to handle the winter, no problem. And unlike the Subaru, this car is extremely clean. The paint is great, the body is great, and the suspension is great. When I bought it, it had been stored in a heated garage for seven years protected from the environment. I've always thought of it as a cool car, but after driving it for a year and being completely blown away by it's handling, I'm starting to realize it's something special. I start noticing other Preludes of this vintage in various states of disrepair, and I start realizing that maybe I should try to preserve this car.
Hence the dilemma. The SVX is a great car, and a fairly rare car. Less than 15,000 were imported into the United States, and a lot fewer than that remain. The third-generation Prelude is anything but a rare car, as Honda cranked out over 160,000 of them worldwide. However, how many nice ones still exist? I'm not sure, and I'm definitely not sure on what to do. Hopefully you guys will help me find a solution.
--Rob the SVX Guy
Steaming Pile on September 30, 2008 at 01:50 PM
A beater is a beater. Drive the Subie in the salty slush, and keep the 'Lude in the garage. No brainer.
Chris Hafner on September 30, 2008 at 02:02 PM
It seems to me the problem is the same in both cases. For differing reasons, you don't want to ruin your SVX or your Prelude - the SVX because it's rare and fun, and the Prelude because it's mint. And unfortunately, driving in the winter in Milwaukee would ruin either car.
My solution is to ruin neither. Why not get a little beater you can pound on during the winter, pick it up for pennies, and then resell it for pennies come spring? Any decent late-model economy car with FWD can handle snow halfway decently, and that way you don't have to worry about the salt, mud, and muck you get in the car either. And pushing that little beater to the limit in the snow could be fun.
If forced to choose, I'd use the SVX. The Prelude is mint - I'd hate to disturb that. And the fact that the SVX can handle the snow better makes it the better choice to use, as you note, for purely practical reasons. But come spring I'd try to get that rust as squared away as possible.
TurboDave on September 30, 2008 at 04:41 PM
I'd say this - sacrifice the SVX and use it for what it's good for; save the Prelude as it is in better condition and there don't tend to be many well preserved Japanese cars of any description. I've seen a lot of really nasty Preludes (of course, as you note, not many SVXs - only a handful when I lived in Anchorage in the '80s).
Shawn on September 30, 2008 at 05:07 PM
Pick up a Ford Tempo for the winter - perhaps the most universal Car Disgust we can all agree on. You'll hate driving it, but you can take out your aggression on the car as the Winter progresses. Break pieces of it daily, voluntarily or involuntarily. When Spring breaks, enter it in the next 24 Hours of Lemons with proud Car Lust Blog graphics. Your SVX and Prelude will thank you with more years of rust free service.
Smoke_Jaguar4 on September 30, 2008 at 05:12 PM
Until you can get the rust spots repaired, don't agravate the situation by exposing it to more salt. The question is, how much do you want to spend on the Soobie? Taking it to a good body shop, disassembling the panels, inspecting, killing the rust, possibly stipping the paint and reapplying rustproofing and paint... $$$
Hondas tend to have better rustproofing than other Japanese cars, particularly from the 1980s. Alternatively, as a sign of true car-lust, move to Arizona to preserve both your beloved cars.
Rob the SVX Guy on September 30, 2008 at 05:44 PM
I can't get another beater. Trying to find storage for one car is expensive, trying to find storage for two would be even more insane. That's out of the question. Thanks for the advice.
Owen on September 30, 2008 at 06:59 PM
I'd say its probably too late to save the SVX, unless you can realistically do what is necessary either immediately or at least very soon.
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame on September 30, 2008 at 07:22 PM
1) Move to Montana. They only use sand there (at least in the area I grew up), never salt.
2) In Hawaii, there is a little gizmo you can get for your car that puts a very, very minute trickle charge into the frame. Supposedly it changes the ionic charge of your car, preventing ionization, i.e., rust, because the oxygen ions can't get/give the electrons for the chemical reaction to occur.
The gizmo seems to work pretty good in Hawaii salt air. I don't know if it would work with winter salt, but it's worth a shot.
David Colborne on September 30, 2008 at 10:17 PM
Nevada also doesn't salt their roads, and the dry climate is absolutely wonderful for rustproofing. Of course, we do have more than our fair share of sand, which can do some damage to paint, but nothing like what you're going through in Milwaukee.
I'd say you're pretty much doomed no matter what you do. Since I'm a Subie fan, I'd probably take the Prelude out there and maybe rinse off the undercarriage periodically, if remotely practical/worthwhile, to keep the salt off. As was pointed out earlier, it's a lot easier to stop rust when it isn't there - once your body panels start to corrode, you're just inviting trouble.
(NOTE: I've never lived in an area with road salt and don't know the first thing about maintaining cars within it. Consequently, take all of my advice with a grain of... erm... salt.)
Mochi Mochi on September 30, 2008 at 10:36 PM
OH GOD! Where to start. This just brings back all kinds of horrible flashbacks. Here's the honest truth having a car in a salt zone is just insane. Driving in salt is the surest way to lose a car. The ultimate answer is move. I did. It's great.
On the matter of restoration. Almost any thing can be restored. If you are seeing rust that's not good. You are quite possibly looking at the tip of the ice berg. The bigger problem is the rust you cannot see. Subaru - never really all that good at rust proofing. The money you will spend to restore a car that has serious rust problems is significant... let me rephrase that... it's huge. If you really love the SVX as a car - not as this specific car - then just run it in the snow and start tracking down a good replacement in some warm dry salt-free region.
There is NO point in doing rust work on a car that is going to live in a salt zone. All cars are doomed in that environment. If you think you will move and take the SVX with you then get it evaluated by a good shop... maybe it can be saved... but honestly rust repair in a salt zone? here's what they do... they patch it up so it wont be too bad for another couple of years... the work does not last and the body shops know that. I know this from personal and expensive experience.
Rob, I know you are really into your SVX. But do you love that particular SVX? Or just SVXs in general. If the answer is the later then you can buy a "fresh" one with out rust. That's the right thing to do.
The Prelude. If the prelude is really pristine DO NOT DRIVE IT IN THE SNOW. It is lighter, better built, and ultimately a superior car to most cars on the road. If this car is clean give it the care it needs. Hondas of that vintage can actually last. And if you aren't turning up any rust on the Prelude count your lucky stars. That's an amazing car. The 4WS is rare. In great shape even more rare. IT WOULD BE A SACRILEGE to drive it in the snow and salt. There's only one honda I want more than a Prelude 4WS of that vintage... the NSX.
Friends in Boston I used to work with who had great cars never drove them in the snow and salt. They put them away for the winter and all bought beaters (Yacks) for $400 or less. At the end of the winter the Yacks were sacrificed with great pomp and ceremony. A beater can make it through a winter surprisingly well. It's worth the investment.
If you seriously can't do a beater, then you should evaluate the SVX and then run it in the snow. Once you start doing that start looking for a new SVX or something you'll like even better. Don't try to save a sinking ship unless you absolutely are absurdly in love with that individual car. What ever you do protect the 4WS Prelude. It's gorgeous and close to automotive perfection.
Rarity does not mean much when salt-cancer is chewing its way through a car. Having a car that you love means a lot. Having a car that drives well and makes you happy matters. The SVX is a designers car. Every designer I know loves that car for it's lines and the split windows. I love the SVX I think it may be the best piece of design Subaru ever produced. If I compare the lines of the Prelude and the SVX I have to say the SVX just edges out the Prelude. But here we are just talking about "form". The Prelude may not be a "designers car", but it is a "drivers car" and it is definitely and "engineers car". There's very very little than can come close to the sophistication of the design and engineering in that generation of Prelude. It stands head and shoulders above most cars, a humble king. The more I dig into hondas of this era and compare them to other cars the more I realize the amazing AMAZING quality and balance of design. Honda at this time was making cars that are without peer. They are just so well thought out - everything makes sense.
Hey what about your Accord? You did not mention that one... wussup there?
If you want to make the SVX last a little longer try getting some basic rust work done. Sand and paint any chipped or bare metal. Break out any areas that are rotting seal them and do what you can to patch the holes. You'll find the more you dig at rust the more you find and the bigger the holes get. But you can keep a car running for years with rust. Their appearance just gets a little sadder every 6 months. A friend of mine had a honda civic si from 87 and ran it for 19 years. She had the floor cut and new material welded in. I think she spent about $1000 to keep the body going. Eventually the rain started seeping through holes in the pillars. She loved it and ran it for years even after she had a newer civic... a replacement. She loved the car so much she needed to transition from one car to the other. Eventually the 87 started overheating with some mystery ailment at about 225000miles- at that point she finally had the car "put down" - there was not much left even thought the engine was completely solid and did not burn or leak a drop of oil - but she was finally ready to move on to the newer civic.
Brian on October 01, 2008 at 12:16 AM
I vote drive the SVX.
The Honda looks like you could do okay, but there's no substitute for AWD and the traction of a subaru.
Zarba on October 01, 2008 at 05:30 AM
If the Subie is salvageable, fix it and park it. 'Ludes are a dime a dozen, and though this one's nice, it's easily replaced.
Otherwise, buy an old beater (Corolla or Civic), and sacrifice that to the Sodium Chloride Gods.
Cookie the Dog's Owner on October 01, 2008 at 06:48 AM
I'm with Chris here. If your budget can handle it, get a beater for winter driving and park both. If you can't, drive the Subie, clean it off frequently to mitigate the exposure to salt, and get it squared away in the spring.
on October 01, 2008 at 07:19 AM
Well, there's the GM 80/90s dustbusters, early Saturns, the composite body panels are impervious to salt. Course you do have to be a tad worried if the seats going to crash through the metal floor when you're going over railroad tracks, or the struts rusting through the metal spaceframe. But damn, the body panels still look good!
The only other thing I've heard that some people do is use oil to coat the underside of the cars. Salt, it why cars from the 90s are considered classics in Michigan, and just used cars in other parts of the country.
John Bono on October 01, 2008 at 09:00 AM
Add me to the drive neither camp. Late 80's to early 90's cars seem to have an affinity to rust that earlier 80's cars and later cars don't have. The best car to pick is a 92-97 grand marq or town car. I'm deliberately leaving off the Crown Vic because you are far more likely to find *very* low mileage examples of the latter two than with a crown vic. I have a 95 crown vic, and only now is the paint starting to show its age. Also make certain to get the dual exhaust version of the marq. 10 more horses plus a 3.27/3.55 rear gear for extra stop light speed, and airbag suspension for ride comfort.
A lot of people claim FWD is better in the snow. It isn't, not by a long shot. Climbing a snow covered hill in FWD, and you will stopped part way up, out of traction because all the weight is on the rear wheels. In RWD, you'll yaw around a lot while climbing, but a steady hand on the steering wheel, and you will climb the hill 9 times out of 10. FWD is also about as much fun in the snow as a night in the sack with Bea Arthur. What's the fun in riding in the snow if you can't get some throttle induced oversteer once in a while?
Bill T. on October 01, 2008 at 09:40 AM
Ah, the perpetual concerns over salt and metal body parts. I grew up in Detroit in the '40's, '50's, and '60's when lots of cars were sold and rusproofing was an occasional thought, since trading in every two to three years was commonplace. Back then, a normal warranty on a new car was very limited. Some of my dad's friends would buy new and immediately have it rustproofed, as well as doing their own maintenance such as oil changes and tune-ups. These were driven a lot through harsh city conditions, and often looked good after five years or more. These guys would often go under the whole car when spring came and clean off the parts where they could see salt or other remnants of the winter building up. I now live in the northern part of MI, and my experience with rusting is my '89 Buick. I bought it in '94 with just under 30,000 miles on it. I contacted the local Ziebart rustproofer and was able to get the treatment for around $300.00 (because of the low miles). I also got a lifetime warranty, with the provision that I take it to them every year for a check over. I missed one year, and they voided the varranty. Since then, rust has appeared all over the rocker panels and door edges. It is too bad, because it runs well with 160,000 miles on the odometer. It is now my winter driver.
By the way, has anyone heard of an American Bantam? I saw one one around fifty years ago, and it reminded me of the first MG TB's and TC's.
Caddy Jeff on October 01, 2008 at 05:22 PM
Shawn on September 30, 2008 at 05:07 PM
Pick up a Ford Tempo for the winter - perhaps the most universal Car Disgust we can all agree on. You'll hate driving it, but you can take out your aggression on the car as the Winter progresses. Break pieces of it daily, voluntarily or involuntarily. When Spring breaks, enter it in the next 24 Hours of Lemons with proud Car Lust Blog graphics. Your SVX and Prelude will thank you with more years of rust free service.
...yeah, that
Brian on October 01, 2008 at 09:01 PM
Let me just add that, your SVX is really cool. It is not, however, a garage queen. Therefore, you're the one who can derive the greatest satisfaction from driving it. Otherwise, you might sell it without putting as many miles as you'd like on it. Also, you get the pleasure of maintaining it when it eventually needs it.
Sillypickle on October 10, 2008 at 04:33 PM
I just have one thing to say: I love living in California, where you can go find snow if you want, but it doesn't come find you!