Peugeot 405 Mi16
For both good and ill, the Peugeot 405 was a landmark car for Peugeot. On the good side of the ledger, the 405 was extremely well-received in Europe, winning the European Car of the Year award in 1988, and establishing a sterling pedigree in international rallying. On the negative side, the 405 was the last car Peugeot sold in the United States before slinking out of this market with its tail between its legs.
With the 405 Mi16, at least Peugeot left on a strong note. The standard 405 was a nice enough sedan--a good driver and pleasantly styled in what would become the clean, slick early 1990s idiom, with just a touch of Peugeot character to keep the car from complete anonymity. The Mi16, though, gave American drivers a taste of the Peugeot performance that Europeans had enjoyed with the 205 Turbo but that never quite infused the still-lustworthy 505.
Both as a French car and a sedan, the 405 Mi16 was a bit of anomaly. Rather than a pillowy ride, the 405 Mi16 offered firm, sports car-like control and agility; and rather than a docile, slow-revving engine, the 405 Mi16 had a high-revving 16-valve four-cylinder pumping out 150 shrieking horsepower--great output for a sedan at the time.
While it didn't have quite as much power as BMW's edgy four-cylinder E36 M3, the 405 Mi16 was less expensive, had two more doors, and mimicked that original M3's hyper, boy racer feel. Whether it was a slightly more sedate M3 for the masses, or a predecessor of the equally hyper Acura Integra GS-R sedan, the 405 Mi16 was a compelling piece.
For a Peugeot, the 405 was pretty well-built and sold well; so while a good 405 is harder to locate than a 505, they are still available for the determined, patient consumer. Prices tend to be reasonable given Peugeot's status as a complete non-entity in the United States over the last two decades. Combine that with the fact that these aren't yet considered collector cars, and the result is that demand for these cars is generally low.
The first video below is of the famous "Take Your Breath Away" 405 commercial, which addresses consumers' common "can I drive this car next to an inferno?" question. In the case of the 405, the answer is categorically yes. I'm not sure why Consumer Reports doesn't regularly test that.
The Peugeot 405 has been largely forgotten in the United States, but racing fanatics remember them fondly for their exploits in the rallying world--specifically in the Dakar Rally and the Pikes Peak hill climb. We've run the second video here before but it is worth repeating--it is the award-winning short French film showing Ari Vatanen effortlessly shredding Pikes Peak in a 405 T16. The third video is all overdubbed in foreign languages--specifically Japanese and French--but is notable for its high-tech intro, where we see the 405 created on what looks like an IBM PS/2. From there we get Dakar and Pikes Peak coverage, all of it stunning.
The lovely 405 atop the page comes courtesy of Flickr user chris.pilot.guy, the image of the red Mi16 comes from Flickr user otro_mun2, and the picture of the gorgeous T16 from the Goodwood Festival of Speed come from Flickr user Harry_S'.
--Chris H.
David Colborne on July 29, 2008 at 01:12 PM
It's too bad Peugeot and Renault had to leave - honestly, cars were so much more interesting when some of those brands were still around.
sillypickle on July 29, 2008 at 01:45 PM
I have always thought it would be awesome to buy a car like this just to have something really unique as my daily driver. Unfortunately I'd probably have to get 2 so I can have a good source of parts...
Rob the SVX guy on July 29, 2008 at 02:03 PM
>shrug<
My single SVX is working fine. I honestly think most cars are relatively reliable as long as you keep up on maintenance.
Mochi Mochi on July 29, 2008 at 03:36 PM
The matter of reliability is taken for granted by many people today. Especially those of us who have Japanese cars - and perhaps own more than one of them;) Overall reliability and durability of cars has improved, but there are a lot of cars that aren't reliable and no amount of maintenance will change that. In the areas of electrical systems and electronics there are a lot of cars that just plain decide to fail. And I don't mean run poorly. I mean strand you where ever you happen to be - where ever you happen to be going - and very likely at the worst possible time.
German cars. French cars. Italian cars. English cars. I love them. I'm especially sad at the loss of the French and Italian cars. These things are quirky - odd-ball - and beautiful. But all of these cars will go belly up on you in some important way. You wont know when. And there's nothing you can do about it. Unless you make it part of your regular maintenance to replace major electrical and electronic components every 40-50K whether it needs it or not.
The current Mini is a case in point. EVERYONE I know who has a Mini has had it in the shop for mystery ailments and massive failures of the electrical variety. The early models came from the factory with strange power drops off the line. Electrical components on BMWs, VWs, Porsches, Mercedes, and Minis FAIL! If you have one of these cars and nothing has gone wrong with a major electrical component you are living on borrowed time. If you are like many who have been driving your car for weeks and then one morning it just does not start, consider yourself lucky that happened in your parking space and not on the road or in front of a speeding Semi.
Still - I love these cars. And with a standby of a car that is actually reliable I could consider owning one. While durability of engine components has improved over the last 25-35 years, BOSCH has not made any significant improvements.
Chris Hafner on July 29, 2008 at 04:39 PM
Many great things in life have downsides, unfortunately. I have long taken it as a given that if I am to have an interesting car, I will need to budget time and money for maintenance and repair. That's the only thing that has kept me from owning a fleet of about 10 just awful cars.
There is a price to pay for driving a Peugeot 405 Mi16 instead of a Honda Accord, and I certainly wouldn't buy one for Cookie the Dog Owner's son. But if you find a good example and are willing to deal with the 20% additional hassle and expense, the reward is a unique, fun, fantastic sports sedan.
rob the SVX guy on July 29, 2008 at 05:30 PM
One thing to be said about reliability: I'd rather go through life having unique, interesting, and rewarding vehicles that occasionally leave me stranded, than go through life having a boring, reliable, common vehicle.
But so far I've just had unique, rewarding, reliable vehicles. I'm fine with that too. :P
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame on July 29, 2008 at 06:57 PM
If you're going to own a vehicle of iffy reliability, you have to commit to an investment in the Pinto method.
That's where you buy 5 Pintos, and the one that starts on any given morning is the one you drive to work.
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame on July 29, 2008 at 07:29 PM
Is it just me, or is the Pike's Peak racer not all that good?
Granted, I've never raced at that speed.
But then again, I've never had that quality of car, either, nor his level of training/experience, and yet I could usually keep a more true straightaway and curve than he did.
sillypickle on July 29, 2008 at 08:29 PM
Nathan: "That's where you buy 5 Pintos, and the one that starts on any given morning is the one you drive to work."
I wonder if you could convince the insurance company to just insure you on one car if you promise not to drive more than one of them at a time and they are all the same year/make/model...
Mochi Mochi on July 29, 2008 at 09:18 PM
Nathan. Regarding Ari Vatanen the Pikes Peak driver. Uh - how do I put this. HE IS AMAZING!. The fact that he is able to drift that car so precisely over rough roads with completely inconsistent traction surfaces is remarkable. His technique makes full use of every inch of the road even on the edge of a cliff. Further the drifts he executes are not for drifting sake alone. They are specifically executed to put the car in an attitude through the turn that will allow it to accelerate out of the turn at its maximum potential.
Chris and Rob, don't get me wrong. My point was that we can all-too-lightly treat reliability as a given in this current age of automotive excellence. And treat reliability as an issue rooted solely in proper maintenance. Regarding Peugot I can't tell you how sad I am that they are not still in our market. I'm in total agreement about the interesting vs reliability trade off. But it is always nice to have a car you can count on. Some cars fail because of poor or insufficient maintenance some fail because Bosch has crap quality standards. There's no reason why great cars should suffer because of bad parts suppliers.
BTW Rob: "My single SVX is working fine" didn't you mention something about an Accord and a Prelude 4WS, and the possibility of a second 4WS? Seems like you have a proliferation of reliable and interesting cars. Not just a "single SVX".
The 405 is a lovely lovely car. Watching the video of the pikes peak run is amazing.
Brian on July 29, 2008 at 10:35 PM
The 405 frickin' rules! I love it. Peugeot 405 - faster than a long train of camels.
As for the reliability debate, there's no reason you can't take a properly maintained German car out for thousands of miles through the wilderness. If you're worried, bring some tools, join AAA, etc, which is what you'd do with any car.
Chris Hafner on July 29, 2008 at 10:42 PM
Nathan: "Is it just me, or is the Pike's Peak racer not all that good?"
I'm with Mochi on this one, Nathan - Vatanen is fantastic.
If this was a formula car on asphalt, I'd be with you, but consider these factors:
1. The car has extremely high horsepower - I would guess between 600 and 1,000 horsepower, which would put it in the realm of the other Pikes Peak supercars of the following few years.
2. This high-horsepower race car also has an extremely short wheelbase, making it very responsive but extremely twitchy.
3. He's racing on gravel, sand, and dirt - not only is the traction low, but it's bumpy, unevenly graded, and unpredictable.
4. Unlike on asphalt, when a racer's job is to stay on the line and make maximum use of the friction circle, rally racers steer as much with the throttle as with the steering wheel. Much of what Vatanen is doing is maneuvering to get the car set up correctly for the next corner, during which time he's playing with the throttle to maintain maximum momentum while rotating the car enough to get through the corner.
Even given all this, his precision is amazing - the few times that outer rear wheel brushes up against the lip at the edge of the overhang are breath-stopping. A few times he drops the inner front wheel off on the rocks inside the corner, but I'm not sure if that's a mistake or not - it could be he's looking for the help to get the car to rotate a little faster.
If it looks like he's sawing the wheel a lot, that's because he is - the minute adjustments in throttle and wheel control the car's attitude as well as its speed, and he has to be right on and past the ragged edge of adhesion to get the car to do what he needs it to do.
Not that it's the same thing, but if you get a chance to play a top-notch rallying video game on a video game console, it can help illustrate just how incredibly difficult it is to maximize momentum and traction while making the corners. I've channeled my own inner Vatanen in a 405 T16 in Rallisport 2 on the Xbox, and it's stunningly hard to get right even in a video game.
Mochi Mochi on July 30, 2008 at 12:02 AM
Clearly German electric components are superior to English electrical components. So that's good:) If you have a German car (and I've owned several) its not necessary to have a second car. All that is required is that you carry a spare alternator, fuel pump, and starter where ever you go. These days you probably need a backup set of ECUs and ABS controllers. I usually carried a couple of extra voltage regulators. I should have bought them in bulk ;) I will credit Bosch with making nice spark plugs and the K-Jetronic FI system was pretty solid if a bit finicky. Being largely mechanical helped. I'm not down on German cars really - I think its just a week of fever brought on by severe food poisoning that is making me a little cranky. I love nazi - I mean German cars. There was a time when I thought I'd never own anything else. But then I shifted to another former Axis power that was actually more than competent in design and manufacture of electronics.
I love watching camel caravan races. But I have to say I only go to watch them crash.
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame on July 30, 2008 at 06:33 AM
@Mochi and Chris,
Well, that's why I asked.
It just didn't look to me like he was taking the most efficient route some of the time.
I fully understand the traction issues. Growing up and learning to drive in Montana, if I wasn't driving on ice, I was usually driving on gravel or dirt. I used to "drift" (I called it "powersliding" through gravel roads in my 1968 Pontiac Tempest. I had a friend who opened my eyes to the excitement of "drifting" (again, he didn't call it that) between construction warning barrels on an ice-covered road in a 70s Datsun 210 (Bumblebee? I think). I couldn't come close to what he did on ice, but I did end up with an instinctual feel for recovering from a fishtail.
The roads I powerslid on were much narrower than the Pike's Peak track, but I feel like I did a better job of aligning myself for the next acceleration.
Then again, I was doing it between 30 and 60mph, I would admit probably mostly on the 30mph end (although I really wan't paying attention to the speedometer, to be honest...maybe I was doing it more at 20 mph, or 50. No way to know, now), and this guy is doing it more 60-80mph, right? And I didn't have anything close to his hp, acceleration, or car twitchiness. Maybe that makes a bigger difference than I would think.
I've played a few rallying video games. I'm not that good, not that bad. I don't persist because you have to drive by your visual cues, and when I'm dirt running (I've never raced...), I drive by feel as much as by sight.
I cannot describe the feel of knowing you are losing traction (can't say adhesion on dirt/gravel) and knowing you can of course brake slightly, but also sensing that if you just lightly accelerate, you'll pull the car back in line...
I've done it in both rear-wheel drive AND front-wheel drive cars (the preceding paragraph being a front-wheel drive experience), but separated by about 15 years in between, so I couldn't begin to guess what the commonality and difference is between the drives. Early on, I did end up doing a 180 in the front-wheel drive once because I didn't come out of the turn right; I'm guessing because
I was using RWD reactions? In any case, I learned and it never happened again.
I wondered at the time if I could have been a good Rally racer, but already had a career and was probably too old to boot (past 35), so it never got to be more than a passing thought.
Let's make this interminable missive more massive:
My dirt-running experiences are about 2% of the reason I've hesitated to really pull the trigger on any one of a number of Poor Man's BMWs. If I can have so much fun in a '68 Tempest or '94 Corolla on dirt, am I really going to have as much fun in a Maxima SE or Mazda3 on pavement? You don't encounter police on back country dirt roads, but you do on paved roads; I'm probably never going to get the full acceleration/traction fun on blacktop.
Thoughts?
Chris Hafner on July 30, 2008 at 08:23 AM
Nathan: "If I can have so much fun in a '68 Tempest or '94 Corolla on dirt, am I really going to have as much fun in a Maxima SE or Mazda3 on pavement?"
It's a great question - but it doesn't necessarily have to be an either-or. The traction limits are so low on dirt that you don't need a fast car to have fun. You could have an old junker that you keep for dirt-road running, assuming you have suitable dirt roads near you.
I know you mentioned wondering if you could have been a good rally racer, and it's really not a bad idea. Pick up a used WRX or a Mazda 323 GTX, or even an old Talon or Eclipse, and participate in the lowest rung of an amateur rally series. No racing is cheap, but if you're not worried about competing at the highest level or winning, this might be some relatively inexpensive fun. There are a few sanctioning bodies that do it.
SCCA: http://www.scca.org/hub.aspx?hub=2
NASA: http://www.nasarallysport.com/getting_started.php
Rally America: http://www.rally-america.com/index.php
I've long dreamed about doing this myself, but life has always intervened. If you're a fan of dirt running there might be a possibility to just get in, get dirty, and have fun.
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame on July 30, 2008 at 09:48 AM
Did my comment about possibly determining my future Mid-life Crisis activity get eaten, or just held in moderation?
Chris Hafner on July 30, 2008 at 09:54 AM
I'm not seeing it in the moderation queue, Nathan, so if you're not seeing it in the comment thread it is probably floating in the ether somewhere.
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame on July 30, 2008 at 09:58 AM
Or, more likely, commenter error.
All I said was that it sounded like a good idea, and the suggestion might well have helped me determine my midlife crisis activity a year or two ahead of time.
It's nice to have these things established well in advance, you know.
Rob the SVX guy on July 30, 2008 at 11:09 AM
Chris, if you'd really like to get involved in rally, I can make a few suggestions. I've been going to the Lake Superior Pro Rally every year for the past 5 years, so I have some rally experience in what I pick up from hanging around spectating. Seems like the best car for a beginner would be a VW Golf, from the 80s. Why? They're really slow, but they're durable, and pretty cheap. Other teams use AWD talons but they really don't have the clearance or susp. travel required, and they are NOT that durable. They break, often. I've seen all sorts of weird rally cars: 1980s Mustang 5.0s, 1970s 911s, obscure Alfa Romeos, 1st gen neons (only 3" of suspension travel stock...ugh.. bad setup for rally), galant vr4s, mazda 323GTXs, but by far the most popular choice is an old VW. I think the simplicity and rugged nature of the design lends itself pretty well. You won't be getting podium finishes, but at least you'll finish.
Chris Hafner on July 30, 2008 at 11:54 AM
That's a great idea, Rob - my uncle used to ice-race Rabbits, and they were perfect for that. Slow, cheap, durable - and pretty well-balanced for what they are.
Really, all of those cars would be fun. It's not like I'd be out there to win, just to have fun. You know, when I have the disposable income, which should be right around 2024.
Rob the SVX guy on July 30, 2008 at 01:02 PM
I always wanted to see a beater 69 Charger with mud tires go for it, complete with dixie horn, orange paint, and a huge O1 on the doors. That would be the epitome of badass. I'd change the roof like this though:
http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs31/f/2008/212/1/e/Peaceful_General_Lee_by_cash68.jpg