Car Lust--Toyota Prius
In most car enthusiast circles, admitting affection for a Toyota Prius is like putting a "Kick Me" sign on your own back. While I like the Prius, I can understand the antipathy.
I've read an amusing description of the Prius that describes it as powered by a small gasoline engine, an electric motor, and its owners' smug sense of superiority. Fair or not, for many people who love cars, the Prius has become a symbol both of people who hate cars and of haughty environmental elitism. The Prius, as the most famous and visible hybrid, also takes a lot of the heat for the fact that hybrids often are overly expensive, complex, use lots of environmentally unfriendly batteries, and tend not to live up to their EPA mileage estimates. Given the fact that a decade-old Geo Metro can match the Prius' mileage without a massive environmentally unfriendly battery pack, there is a perception that hybrids (and, by association, the Prius) are more a symbol of environmentalism than a useful way to save gas.
I don't really subscribe to either the viewpoint that the Prius and other hybrids are environmental saviors, or symbols of elitism and hypocrisy. I like hybrid technology--the idea of recouping energy lost in braking is pretty cool, and I think plug-in hybrids have some interesting potential. And, really, it's not fair for the Prius to carry all of that pro- and anti-hybrid baggage. It should be judged on its own merits, and on its own merits I find the Prius to be a pretty compelling car.
I'm on the record for being a sucker for bloated five-doors, like the early 1980s Saab 900 five-door, the Dodge Colt Vista and (shudder) the Suzuki Aerio, and like those cars the Prius combines a smoothly sloping roofline, the usefulness of four doors, and the extreme utility of a hatchback to carry people and cargo with ease. Its shape is geeky and bulbous in true five-door hatchback style, with a gawky but adorable face and clean lines. Its grinning "face," lots of glass, and oversized headlights and taillights give the impression of a cheerful car. I like it in the same way I like the AMC Pacer. Oh, and the small clear glass section in the tailgate that supposedly improves rear visibility is a nice little nod to the second-gen Honda CRX.
The Prius doesn't offer a whole lot to people who really enjoy the pure act of driving. A co-worker of mine once made the amazing comment that driving a Dodge Dynasty was like "driving a pie." Well, driving a Prius is like driving an iPod. While it doesn't offer any visceral thrills, it's still pretty interesting.
Why? Well, for one thing, it's genuinely cool to be able to drive just on battery power alone. The first few times you do it, the silence is so eerie to be almost Kubrickian. Then, too, it's fun to watch on the central screen how the energy is flowing between the engine, the battery, the electric motor, and the driving wheels. It's like a video game where the objective is to maximize your energy--not quite the same as driving quickly, but since I'm a bit of a video game nerd I was pretty engrossed. The start-up and shut-down procedure also seems willfully obtuse--it takes a little bit of getting used to and adds a slightly exotic feel to driving the car.
Toyota intelligently clued into the fact that not all consumers who want a small car want a cheap penalty box. In fact, some are willing to pay a fair amount of money for high-level options. Touch-screen navigation, Bluetooth, leather, and a six-disc in-dash CD changer are all available on a Prius, which sets the Prius apart from other smallish cars and adds an additional technological sheen to the experience. The car-lover purist in me rebels at the idea of the technology being more important than the visceral driving experience, but at least it makes the car interesting.
Francophiles everywhere will no doubt be pursuing me with torches and pitchforks for this, but the Prius feels to me like a modern-day Americanized Citroen. In fact, that probably explains a lot of why I like it. The tall, slab-sided wagon body and tiny wheels remind me for some reason of the Citroen 2CV, and the bizarre dashboard and intentionally opaque controls evoke the Citroen CX's equally otherworldly interior. It's easy to forget, since Priii are everywhere, but the Prius is a very quirky car--as quirky as a Citroen. All it's missing is an overly complicated air suspension system.
One quirk that I hate is the center-mounted instrument panel. I hate it in the Saturn Ion, I hate it in the Toyota Echo, and I hate it in the Prius. It's a distraction, and I loathe the empty expanse of dashboard right in front of the driver.
My wife and I were shopping for a family car a few years ago, and effort that eventually led to us buying our used Accord. My extensive shopping list included such disparate cars as the Prius and the Dodge Magnum R/T Hemi. The hybrid system made the Prius just a little too expensive for what you get, but if Toyota made a cheaper version with a conventional powertrain, perhaps a turbo four or a small but torquey V-6, there's an outside chance that I'd be a Prius driver today, and receiving even more abuse from my friends than I already do.
I added the commercial below for two reasons--it references Fresno, and because it has the bizarre but difficult-to-shake vision of a lot of cows hooked up in unfortunate fashion to a methane-collection bag. Weird.
--Chris H.
jblog on June 02, 2008 at 06:33 PM
"Could you please link to the "debunking" argument to which you refer, or is your statement a steaming load of internet BS?"
This provides a pretty good synopsis: http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200711/mrgreen_mailbag.asp
Cites legitimate scientific sources -- MIT, Argonne National Lab, Carnegie Mellon, Pacific Institute -- and everything, as opposed to the original "research" from CNW Research.
Quotes Dr. David Friedman of the Union for Concerned Scientists as saying: "[The CNW report] has been completely contradicted by studies from MIT, Argonne National Laboratory, and Carnegie Mellon's Lifecycle Assessment Group. The reality is hybrids can significantly cut global-warming pollution, reduce energy use, and save drivers thousands at the pump."
"Completely contradicted." I believe that's scientific jargon for "this is a steaming load of Internet BS."
Jack MacKenzie on June 02, 2008 at 08:34 PM
Rented a Prius late Fall 2006 from Enterprise for a round trip of Grand Junction, Colo -to- Denver and back. Vail Pass @ 10,6000 feet above sea level and Eisenhower Tunnel @ 11,013, plus three outrageous grades of many miles in length and sometimes as much as 7% with the last approach to Eisenhower at 9%. 600 miles total on the odometer for that trip (there back, and driving around). Used 10 gallons of gasoline. About $2.50 a gallon if memory serves, because the trip over and back and driving around in Denver cost me under $30. The Prius HAULED tail over the passes without so much as a stutter, in fact fairly sailed over. There were patches of slushly and hard pack snow along the way and the Prius gave me no concern. All in all it was a delight to drive and I'd buy one ... except for that awful dash-display. Wow, what a distraction. Other than that and the teeny luggage space the Prius was an enjoyable ride.
davidb on June 02, 2008 at 10:41 PM
ugg... prius is high on the list of cars i cannot stand to be behind. get a life, people, and pretend you actually need to be somewhere. or move to some backwater and get the hell out of the city. top cars to tailgate hard, with high beams on and occasional horn blasts in my f350 - usually loaded with at least half a ton of tools, often times many multiples of that - are:
toyota camry
toyota rav4
honda crv
toyota prius
toyota seems to attract one of two types of customers - smug geriatric types with kerry/edwards stickers who hog the left lane at ten under and quality individuals who recognize the charm of their pickups, landcruisers and fjcruisers. go figure.
Mochi Mochi on June 02, 2008 at 11:39 PM
good point DavidB - people everywhere, no matter what you drive, don't hog the left lane. That's the high speed lane - the passing lane. Pass and move to the RIGHT!
JaneB on June 03, 2008 at 12:00 AM
"steaming load of Internet BS"? A lot of these arguments are based on accounting. Different studies include and exclude data and conditions. Total carbon foot print may or may not include mining efforts for metals used in battery manufacture. But total carbon foot print is not the only measure of environmental impact. The toxic chemicals used in batteries don't necessarily have a carbon foot print that is particularly high, but they are toxic none the less. Where do these toxics go when batteries need to be refreshed at 150k miles? The short story is that there are no free rides. Hybrids may produce less carbon at the tail pipe, but they may have a total carbon foot print that is lower or higher than a standard economy car. This depends on accounting methods, which are always in question. The fact remains that a hybrid will invariably have more non-carbon toxic chemicals associated with its operation and life-cycle. But there is no absolute accounting methodology that will prove that the Hybrid is right or wrong. It is neither. It's a car, and it has good and bad points. Those that own them will invariably defend their buying decision and interpret criticism as a personal attack. Those that don't like them are unlikely to be swayed and will find reasons to decry their existence. A very few will propose strange and irresponsible modifications to them. (I'm talking about you "Cookie the Dog's Owner" and "Mochi Mochi", hot rods and low riders, really now.) And finally some will simply want them to get out of their way.
Brian on June 03, 2008 at 12:36 AM
For some reason I wanted to chime in here. I'm surprised at the actual highway MPG of the Prius reported by users, it's higher than the sticker MPG, that's cool! However, the Prius is still a gas powered machine, and the practical alternative for many is going to be some kind of older gas powered machine. I think that flaunting it as the already achieved ultimate fuel-saving vehicle is a bit premature. For instance, if you have a good supply of biodiesel, you can run your H1 Hummer all day long for nothing. Few people have that and its ecological cost is terrible. I'm just saying that I think the ultimate fuel-saver has yet to be fully realized.
Rob the SVX Guy on June 03, 2008 at 06:50 AM
I think the problem here is that somehow this discussion veered towards that completely retarded "Buying an H2 is better for the environment than a Prius". Yes. That is stupid. The main reason for that report being completely freaking retarded was the life expectancy. They said that the Prius was expected to last 100,000 miles, whereas the H2 would last 300,000 miles. What?! Okay, maybe it's just me, but I'm pretty sure TOYOTA is known for long term reliability, NOT GM. Anyway... The H2 gets 6-12mpg. However, the prius uses batteries made overseas from minerals from around the world, they don't last that long, and it's overly complex with 2x the number of parts due to 2 seperate drivetrains.
Again, BOTH ARE STUPID. Throw a normal 30-35mpg sedan into the mix, and it's clearly a winner in terms of actual carbon footprint. Throw in a used Honda, and you'll beat almost anything. My 89 Hondas get 30-37mpg, they are cheap to run, and if I keep the rust off them, they'll run almost indefinitely. If an engine ever blows, I can get another one for only a few hundred dollars.
Rob the SVX guy on June 03, 2008 at 06:52 AM
D Palmer: You are ignoring the energy used and pollution created in the actual car's production. You are being shortsighted, and failing to look at the BIG picture, and overall net effect. The Prius is a resource hog of toxic chemicals, and it is extremely complex. You're just looking at the tailpipe, which is just as stupid as the "H2s are better for the environment than a Prius" crowd. You need to look at EVERYTHING. Production. Shipping. Machining. Electronics. Chemicals. Painting. Locations of production, with environmental regulations.
If you can do this, the Geo Metro absolutely rapes the Prius in terms of carbon footprint. The Geo is a relatively simple solution, the Prius is one of the most complex solutions available, and it isn't even a solution. It gets good MPG at a price, a price of HUGE carbon footprint for production.
Rob the SVX guy on June 03, 2008 at 07:00 AM
JBlog: You're talking about the H2 vs Prius article, which was retarded. Not because it's points were wrong, but because of the 'expected lifespan'. They pegged the Toyota at only last 100,000 miles, whereas the H2 would last 300,000. That is obviously skewed, biased, and incorrect.
However, ALL OF THEIR POINTS ABOUT THE PRIUS WERE CORRECT. I'm glad you want cleaner air, I'm glad you want to help. That is a good attitude. However, you are lacking something called critical thinking, and being skeptical of green ideas. The Prius is NOT good for the environment, because of all the things listed in that article. A regular family sedan is a much 'greener' choice. An even greener choice than that is purchasing a used car, keeping it maintained, and driving it for as many years as possible before retiring it. But you won't do that, because you wanted something NEW AND FANCY. If you'd be willing to drive older, used vehicles, you actually would be reducing the demand for new vehicles, you'd be reducing your carbon footprint, and you'd be saving energy by keeping a car from being recycled.
You are [deleted, name-calling], but you can't admit it. Instead you wear rose colored glasses and refuse to acknowledge the true impact of your Prius. Sad. But hey, the media tells you you're saving the planet, and they always tell the truth, right? Right?
Steaming Pile on June 03, 2008 at 08:14 AM
@Rob - The Prius also keeps Toyota from spending much engineering effort toward making a more efficient Corolla, which at around $16K a copy vs $24K, might actually do some good. I'm positive that even if Toyota engineers were incredibly lazy and just stuck the 1.5 liter Yaris engine in a Corolla and called it a Tercel, you'd probably see an efficiency boost of 3 to 6 MPG. Remember, 20 years ago, 103 HP in a car in Corolla's class was considered more than adequate.
jblog on June 03, 2008 at 12:11 PM
"However, ALL OF THEIR POINTS ABOUT THE PRIUS WERE CORRECT."
Not according to MIT, the Argonne National Lab, Carnegie Mellon, the Pacific Institute, the Sierra Club and the head of the Union of Concerned Scientists.
"Completely contradicted" was what Dr. Friedman of the Union for Concerned Scientists said about the CNW report, not "They got everything right except the life expectancy thing."
Go back and do the reading, then comment -- here's the link again: http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200711/mrgreen_mailbag.asp
Chris Hafner on June 03, 2008 at 12:13 PM
Mochi, I like Fresno too. I traveled there every month for a couple of years and really wound up liking the area.
Chris Hafner on June 03, 2008 at 12:19 PM
It's amazing to what degree the Prius is the symbol of pro- and anti-hybrid argument. Personally, I think hybrid technology is pretty neat, but it's still immature technology compared to a normal internal combustion engine, which has had 100+ years of development. I think the concept is a good one - recover wasted braking energy and use it to help power the car. But it's very complicated and expensive for the benefits you get. Right now I think battery technology is the limiting factor - hopefully that technology will advance to the point where batteries are light, long-lasting, can hold and recover a lot of energy, and are less toxic than they are today.
Things are getting a little heated. I just snipped out one personal insult; the rest of what I'm reading is attacking ideas and not people, which I think is fine as long as it's done above-board. Things like "stupid" and "retarded" and "steaming load of Internet BS" are borderline, so I've left them in, but if things go too far, I'll lock comments.
Code of conduct:
http://www.carlustblog.com/2008/04/code-of-conduct.html
Chris Hafner on June 03, 2008 at 12:26 PM
JaneB: "Those that don't like them are unlikely to be swayed and will find reasons to decry their existence. A very few will propose strange and irresponsible modifications to them. (I'm talking about you "Cookie the Dog's Owner" and "Mochi Mochi", hot rods and low riders, really now.)"
Actually, the idea of hopping up a Prius was one of my favorite ideas in this thread.
:-)
Chris Hafner on June 03, 2008 at 12:29 PM
Steaming Pile: "I'm positive that even if Toyota engineers were incredibly lazy and just stuck the 1.5 liter Yaris engine in a Corolla and called it a Tercel, you'd probably see an efficiency boost of 3 to 6 MPG. Remember, 20 years ago, 103 HP in a car in Corolla's class was considered more than adequate."
This is a good point too. Of course, cars are heavier now, for a variety of reasons that we've already discussed, but even economy cars today perform like the hot hatchbacks of the 1980s. Conceivably we could be a little more bare-bones if we're willing to lower the performance bar.
I'm not willing to buy one, but I'm sure many people would be.
Mochi Mochi on June 03, 2008 at 02:47 PM
The thing that got missed here is the fact that the Prius is a symbol and a very noticeable symbol of "the hybrid". Honda has been making Hybrids for a very long time - longer I think than Toyota. You can buy a civic in hybrid or normal gas engine layout. No one notices the difference - it's under the radar - just another civic doing its work and getting even better gas mileage. But you can't get a "normal" Prius - they are all hybrids. And driving one has more of a statement and symbol associated with it.
You wont see a lot of "smug" civic hybrid drivers. It's just not part of civic ownership - hybrid or not. The civic is actually just "civic" in its nature :)
Speaking of smug... The 1st lesson learned from this post is that if you want to have a controversial post with a lot of comments you should include the following topics: SUVs, Hybrids, MiniVans, Carbon Footprint, and the word "Smug". Do that and you will have controversy :)
The other lesson learned from this post and the "SUV Throwdown" is that Rob (who I lovingly refer to as "Mad Dog" ;) is an equal opportunity commenter. He bravely takes on both SUV and Hybrid owners alike. Not many people throw round-house punches at "self-proclaimed tree-huggers" and the "blatant consumerists" too - it's like heckling GreenPeace and the Timber Industry at the same time. I swear that if we could harness his energy we could power a fleet of vehicles for a year. I respect balanced curmudgeons - hell I'm one too - and I know under that rough exterior there beats a heart of gold, or an evil genius, or both :)
But we do have a code of conduct here (thanks for the reminder Chris). I appreciate all the perspectives that are brought to these pages, the positive dialog, and exchange of ideas that make these posts such a treat to read and respond to. An atmosphere of respect is always going to foster the best and most intelligent discussions and continue to make CarLust a friendly and enjoyable destination - something all to rare in the rough and tumble of the web.
Anthony Cagle on June 03, 2008 at 03:09 PM
I was just about to comment on the similarities of this to the SUV thread. Heh.
Probably a similar thing, too. The marketing data I've seen suggests that people tend to drive Priusi more for the symbolism than any rational economic decision.
Once they get past the battery-assist sort of hybrid and into true plug-in electric hybrids -- where a small gas engine charges batteries that provide the sole motive force -- I think mileage will improve dramatically and be more in line with what I was expecting hybrids to be. I think the Chevy Volt uses this design (which I hear just got the production go-ahead) as does something Audi is putting out soon.
Rob the SVX guy on June 03, 2008 at 03:26 PM
I apologize if I've offended anybody, but when I called someone a 'consumer whore', I wasn't doing so to insult anyone. I just say it like I see it, and here's the definition:
"Someone who makes fool-harty purchases, blind to the money-making scams of corporations. "
"1. One who purchases (things) solely in an attempt to conform."
People who fail to question hybrid technology, people who ignore net impact, people who only look at tailpipe emissions, and people who act smug about all of this are consumer whores, in my opinion. In fact, I'd say in terms of just (lack of) thought process, most Prius owners are very similar to Hummer owners.
on June 03, 2008 at 05:16 PM
"I apologize if I've offended anybody, but when I called someone a 'consumer whore', I wasn't doing so to insult anyone."
Nice try, but the truth is you nothing about me, anybody else in this discussion, on in fact anything -- at all -- about this topic. [deleted, insulting]
I, on the other hand, spent two years researching, driving and otherwise analyzing vehicle choices -- from diesel sedans to small SUVs -- before making my choice.
I apologize if that offends you.
Rob the SVX guy on June 03, 2008 at 05:37 PM
JBlog, I read your link, and it says nothing about the true cost of the Prius. It comments on why the H2 Vs Prius article was retarded, and I agree with it. The expected lifespans of each vehicle were a complete joke. What you are still failing to realize is that the Prius uses 32lbs of Nickel IN EACH prius, mined from all over the world (using fossil fuels), refined (using fossil fuels), shipped to Japan or China (using fossil fuels), cast into battery plates (using fossil fuels), assembled, and then shipped (using fossil fuels) back to America. This is in addition to all the processes, energy, oil, electricity, machines, workers, and infrastructures required for the REST of the vehicle, which includes an engine, two massive motors, inverters, transmissions, brakes, shocks, springs, chassis, interior parts, hvac system, etc etc etc etc etc. All of it ads up to way more than a normal production car, and the energy required for it is absolutely GIGANTIC compared to a used car.
If you spent 2 years researching the impact of the Prius and failed to realize this... I'm sorry. I don't know what to say other than I feel really bad for you. [Deleted, insulting]
Chris Hafner on June 03, 2008 at 06:47 PM
... and, I think we're done.
Lots of good information, including from the combatants, but I think we've worked through the frank exchange of ideas and continuing would be counter-productive. Everybody knows where everybody else stands, and I think we can move on.