Car Lust--Toyota Prius
In most car enthusiast circles, admitting affection for a Toyota Prius is like putting a "Kick Me" sign on your own back. While I like the Prius, I can understand the antipathy.
I've read an amusing description of the Prius that describes it as powered by a small gasoline engine, an electric motor, and its owners' smug sense of superiority. Fair or not, for many people who love cars, the Prius has become a symbol both of people who hate cars and of haughty environmental elitism. The Prius, as the most famous and visible hybrid, also takes a lot of the heat for the fact that hybrids often are overly expensive, complex, use lots of environmentally unfriendly batteries, and tend not to live up to their EPA mileage estimates. Given the fact that a decade-old Geo Metro can match the Prius' mileage without a massive environmentally unfriendly battery pack, there is a perception that hybrids (and, by association, the Prius) are more a symbol of environmentalism than a useful way to save gas.
I don't really subscribe to either the viewpoint that the Prius and other hybrids are environmental saviors, or symbols of elitism and hypocrisy. I like hybrid technology--the idea of recouping energy lost in braking is pretty cool, and I think plug-in hybrids have some interesting potential. And, really, it's not fair for the Prius to carry all of that pro- and anti-hybrid baggage. It should be judged on its own merits, and on its own merits I find the Prius to be a pretty compelling car.
I'm on the record for being a sucker for bloated five-doors, like the early 1980s Saab 900 five-door, the Dodge Colt Vista and (shudder) the Suzuki Aerio, and like those cars the Prius combines a smoothly sloping roofline, the usefulness of four doors, and the extreme utility of a hatchback to carry people and cargo with ease. Its shape is geeky and bulbous in true five-door hatchback style, with a gawky but adorable face and clean lines. Its grinning "face," lots of glass, and oversized headlights and taillights give the impression of a cheerful car. I like it in the same way I like the AMC Pacer. Oh, and the small clear glass section in the tailgate that supposedly improves rear visibility is a nice little nod to the second-gen Honda CRX.
The Prius doesn't offer a whole lot to people who really enjoy the pure act of driving. A co-worker of mine once made the amazing comment that driving a Dodge Dynasty was like "driving a pie." Well, driving a Prius is like driving an iPod. While it doesn't offer any visceral thrills, it's still pretty interesting.
Why? Well, for one thing, it's genuinely cool to be able to drive just on battery power alone. The first few times you do it, the silence is so eerie to be almost Kubrickian. Then, too, it's fun to watch on the central screen how the energy is flowing between the engine, the battery, the electric motor, and the driving wheels. It's like a video game where the objective is to maximize your energy--not quite the same as driving quickly, but since I'm a bit of a video game nerd I was pretty engrossed. The start-up and shut-down procedure also seems willfully obtuse--it takes a little bit of getting used to and adds a slightly exotic feel to driving the car.
Toyota intelligently clued into the fact that not all consumers who want a small car want a cheap penalty box. In fact, some are willing to pay a fair amount of money for high-level options. Touch-screen navigation, Bluetooth, leather, and a six-disc in-dash CD changer are all available on a Prius, which sets the Prius apart from other smallish cars and adds an additional technological sheen to the experience. The car-lover purist in me rebels at the idea of the technology being more important than the visceral driving experience, but at least it makes the car interesting.
Francophiles everywhere will no doubt be pursuing me with torches and pitchforks for this, but the Prius feels to me like a modern-day Americanized Citroen. In fact, that probably explains a lot of why I like it. The tall, slab-sided wagon body and tiny wheels remind me for some reason of the Citroen 2CV, and the bizarre dashboard and intentionally opaque controls evoke the Citroen CX's equally otherworldly interior. It's easy to forget, since Priii are everywhere, but the Prius is a very quirky car--as quirky as a Citroen. All it's missing is an overly complicated air suspension system.
One quirk that I hate is the center-mounted instrument panel. I hate it in the Saturn Ion, I hate it in the Toyota Echo, and I hate it in the Prius. It's a distraction, and I loathe the empty expanse of dashboard right in front of the driver.
My wife and I were shopping for a family car a few years ago, and effort that eventually led to us buying our used Accord. My extensive shopping list included such disparate cars as the Prius and the Dodge Magnum R/T Hemi. The hybrid system made the Prius just a little too expensive for what you get, but if Toyota made a cheaper version with a conventional powertrain, perhaps a turbo four or a small but torquey V-6, there's an outside chance that I'd be a Prius driver today, and receiving even more abuse from my friends than I already do.
I added the commercial below for two reasons--it references Fresno, and because it has the bizarre but difficult-to-shake vision of a lot of cows hooked up in unfortunate fashion to a methane-collection bag. Weird.
--Chris H.
Rob the SVX guy on May 30, 2008 at 02:21 PM
I like the shape, the style, and the utility, but I dislike the drivetrain. It's an overly complex answer to a problem, and it isn't even remotely a solution. When you factor in all the energy needed to refine ore for batteries, battery production, shipping, plus all the energy needed for everything else, it is an extremely wasteful 'solution' (which it isn't). It does get good gas mileage, but it puts a huge strain on our other resources, and creates more pollution than a conventional sedan. Remember the theory of KISS. As Albert Einstein once said, any fool can make something bigger, more powerful, or more complex, but it takes true genius to go the other direction and still have a good solution. I think of hybrids as overly complicated band-aids. Or a road that's been patched 2,000 times so there's less than half of hte original road still showing. Sometimes, it's better just to start from scratch; you'd wind up with a more efficient solution than piggypacking an entire second drivetrain, and then all the garbage needed to get the two seperate drivetrains to play nicely together.
Mochi Mochi on May 30, 2008 at 04:15 PM
I like Fresno. There are some really nice sections, like the Tower District. In the autumn you drive 5 minutes outside of town and you are in beautiful peach orchards lit up with Fall colors. Imagine miles and miles of orchard all orange, red, and yellow. The King's Canyon area provides some amazing roads for driving. REALLY nice place to go fast. And farmer's kids race around like you're in an episode of Dukes of Hazard. It reminds me of the California I grew up in as a kid. Some parts of town aren't so great, but the area overall is wonderful and under-rated.
Ok - so much for my pitch for Fresno...
I've been in a number of Prii. I like the car. They make great taxi cabs. There's a car service in Boston and San Fran, www.planettran.com, that runs a lot of Prii. They are roomy. The back seat is comfortable for a tall person. The ride is firm but smooth. The instrument display is "interesting".
People either seem to love or hate the styling. I like it. I like it a lot. It is odd and appealing to me. It's not a car I would in any way shun due to styling.
Except - listen to me now and think about this later - I WILL NEVER EVER BUY A CAR WITH AN INSTRUMENT POD ANYWHERE BUT IMMEDIATELY IN FRONT OF ME!! If for some odd twist of fate I should ever be burdened with such a ridiculous instrument placement as say, the middle of the dash above the center console, I will:
1) Cover, upholster, or bondo over the instrument pod.
2) Get a set of gauges and bolt them onto the dash in front of the steering wheel where they belong. If needed I will use lag bolts and 2x4s. But that would be the anger speaking.
3) Rip out the dash, drop in a roll cage, and replace the dash with a piece of anodized aluminum then bolt in new instruments.
The shift of instrument pods is a completely UNSAFE thing to do. Why is it done? To make room for the air bags!!!! So let's make a car that is more likely to crash due to distracted drivers! But it will be easier to get the damn air bags in!!
Batteries... yeah they suck. But so much does these days. I'm on the fence here, but I do agree with Rob that the negative impact of battery production is very real.
Here are the mods I can think of that would make a Prius a great car. They go in conceptually different directions.
OPTION 1: Pull the batteries. Strip the interior add roll cage. Drop in an RX7 engine with a turbo. Lower the car on a new set of Koni racing shocks. Stiffen the frame. Put on very fat very sticky tires on flat black racing rims. Big discs all around. Hook up a nasty snarling exhaust.
OPTION 2: Install car under-lighting. Turn the trunk into a giant subwoofer array. Pull the existing suspension and replace it with hydraulics. Cut the roof into a targa top. Lambo Doors. Replace the skinny tires and wheels with huge chrome rollers and super low profile tires. There's nothing like a hopping low-rider Prius completely blinged out... except the very same hopping low-rider Prius with an air brushed Virgin Mary on the hood.
There are other "hybrids" made by "competing manufacturers" (who will remain nameless - Rob you're an evil genius) that I prefer to the Prius. Other hybrids, that have been "less successful" in sales, were actually better more innovative cars - and achieved much higher gas milage. But size has been an issue. The Prius is a nicely sized vehicle that allows a lot of use for the typical family. This is an odd but kind of cool looking family sedan.
The efficiency based instrument display is somewhat game like. It really does change your thinking from speed and time to battery charge, energy usage, and economy. It certainly did for me when I drove an early hybrid. But for the guys who are driving their Prii at 90+ on interstate 5 near Bakersfield, it does not appear to be making a dent.
A few years back (1985 or so) one of manufacturer - I think it was VW - experimented with a number of gas saving mods to their cars. I think there was a Rabbit that had a motion sensor. When the car was at rest at a red light, the engine was shut down. There was an oversized starter that would restart the car when the light turned green. I believe this was some kind of link between ignition and clutch. Aside from the obvious use issues, and the lack of reliability in ignition and starters, this actually saved huge amounts of gas. Hence the Prius being more efficient at low speeds when it uses its electric drive for low speed travel. The inspiration came from somewhere.
I think there were also some experiments with engines that could shut down some of their cylinders when not needed. This could still be an interesting option. Think of a 6 cyl engine that could run off of 3 cyl when load was low. Kind of interesting. There are obvious problems to overcome, but potentially less complicated than an entirely separate power system.
The other day Cookie T.D.O. suggested that cars be manufactured to run off of multiple fuel types. That's an interesting idea too. I see a lot of old Mercedes diesels with Bio-diesel logos on them. Given the huge costs of diesel these days it's no surprise that people are trying to run their cars off reclaimed cooking oil from local restaurants.
Cookie the Dog's Owner on May 30, 2008 at 06:57 PM
A few thoughts, in no particular order:
1. I'll repeat what I said on the other thread a few days ago; I don't think that hybrid technologies aren't quite "there" yet. By "there", I mean "competitive in cost and performance with the technology it seeks to replace." Right now, the Prius comes at a premium price over a comparable conventional car. I don't know if the fuel savings are enough to offset the initial cost, even at today's prices. I'm not conversant with the environmental issues of battery manufacture, so I'll take Rob's word for it on that issue. However, all of that may change in a hardware generation or two, as the technology matures.
2. I do have to give the Prius credit for being a successful piece of engineering. It's roomy, useful, well-behaved, and reliable. From everything I've heard about how it performs, I don't think I'd want one, but that's a matter of taste.
3. It does seem, though, that there are a lot of people who buy a Prius for the wrong reason. There are people who buy an SUV because they want to be seen in a manly big truck and impress the neighborhood. There are other people who put fender flares and a Cherry Bomb muffler and gamongous rear spoiler (made from the wings of a retired T-38 Talon) on a base model Chevy Cavalier to turn it into a Badass Street Machine so you'll see just how bad-ass they are. And then there are the ones who buy a Prius, paper over the rear hatch and bumper with a riotous array of political and social messages in ALL CAPS, just so we'll all know that they're SAVING THE EARTH and they CARE MORE THAN YOU DO. The Prius of Compassion rolls down the street emitting great clouds of smug, its driver giving the drivers of passing SUVs and Badass Street Machines a contemptuous stare, oblivious to how much he has in common with them.
4. Deep inside me, there's a high-spirited, reckless little boy who wants to take a Prius, replace the hybrid drive train with something aggressive like, say, a Volkswagen R32, stick in some serious tires, and go looking for Badass Street Machines to humiliate.
Mochi Mochi on May 30, 2008 at 07:47 PM
I am so down with slamming a prius into something completely bad-ass. How about a small block V8 or a Buick aluminum V6.
The correct mods to a Prius are those that result in something grossly irresponsible and completely environmentally or socially unacceptable - or both. The best of all possible worlds is a Prius that shoots enormous flames out the tail, makes a deafening roar, does massive burn outs, and can dance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nUCFN6WI38
Dance chiquita dance...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=956q4s5J-i0&feature=related
CookieTDO has a great idea with the R32 conversion. But somehow I think it needs to go farther. The Prius is sooo contained - the height of good taste. Imagine full ground effects, the huge T-38 Talon wing and massive chrome spinners - with a pink and silver airbrushed paint job. And flames... it has to shoot flames. Yeah - now you're talking.
Oh no - a Prius to SUV conversion or Prius stretch limo. Believe me - it will happen.
David Drucker on May 31, 2008 at 06:31 AM
Years ago I used to run into a neighborhood Corvair every once in a while. It had a first-generation Toronado drivetrain IN THE BACK SEAT. The owner told me that it handled better after the conversion, because the weight distribution was more even.
I wouldn't recommend a similar modification on a new Prius, but once the batteries need replacing...
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame on May 31, 2008 at 09:07 AM
I appreciate the Prius for what it is: A pioneer.
Just like The Car That Shall Not Be Named So Rob Can Get a Better Price on a Used One Someday.
Is it really worth it right now? Probably not. But we've learned a lot about power conservation due to the people who bought it because they lack critical thinking skills, so we shouldn't be too condescending.
Bonus thought: I don't think comparisons to the Metro are fair, because the Prius is a full-size car. You could probably fit a Metro into the Prius back-seat. Also, the Prius has competitive speed/handling/acceleration numbers in an era that family sedans out-perform 80s-era supercars...by "competitive", mean: not actually comparable, but not so bad that people refuse to buy it.
That wasn't really true of the Metro, even in the 80s. It was a horrible drive. People who buy one now are really sacrificing quite a bit.
Better to get an old Golf Diesel or CRX if you really want to get 50 mpg.
Brian on June 01, 2008 at 12:31 AM
"Years ago I used to run into a neighborhood Corvair every once in a while. It had a first-generation Toronado drivetrain IN THE BACK SEAT. The owner told me that it handled better after the conversion, because the weight distribution was more even."
Don't know what to say about that! Obviously the Toronado would make a heck of an object of car lust.
RE: the Prius ad, they seem to be pitching only the environmental aspect vs. the gas mileage aspect, i.e. that you may have the occasional bad emission, as seen by the crazy cows hooked up to the crazy air bag and what the hell was that? Totally bizarre, and fine but the fact is that a new Prius is going to have a more negative environmental impact than an old Geo, because of the production of batteries and other material that have already been mentioned.
I've read somewhere that the best you can do for avoiding negative environmental impacts is to drive old cars longer, and keep them in top condition longer, instead of buying a new one every few years. And +1 to Nathan on the Golf, that's going to be the next old beater in my yard.
Ally on June 01, 2008 at 10:10 AM
I am a smug Prius owner. I'm smug because I average 50 miles to the gallon. Good reason to be smug. On our narrow country county roads here in SE Kentucky (lots of ups and downs and curves) I get around 58 mpg if I am not in a hurry and go about 40-45 mph. I'm old, so I can go that slow and not scream - unlike you young ones (try watching the scenery, noticing things). On the interstate I get around 49-50mpg travelling around 70mph. When we lent our Prius to our son, he got a dreadful 38mpg in the city. Probably too many faster than necessary starts, late than necessary brakes. The city never does that to me when I go there - high 40s mpg is more typical for me in big city. I am a prius fan. Lots of room for stuff, easy access doors. Couldn't care less about position of the instruments.
Steaming Pile on June 01, 2008 at 11:40 AM
@Rob - Right now, there is a 17 year old kid driving a Mazda pickup truck that runs solely on electric power. He says he gets 100 miles on a charge and can run at highway speeds. He built the truck a year ago.
Here's his blog - http://greenflightev.blogspot.com/ it makes interesting reading.
prius owner on June 01, 2008 at 12:36 PM
I bought mine because I was spending 90 bucks a week for my chevrolet. I spend around 30 now. I drive a long way to work a day--90 miles. The Vortex 6 uses to much gas to drive that distance 5 days a week. It is used and doesn't have a squeak or rattle and the ride is excellent. It was a program car and has a lot of miles on it. I may be car poor, but I'm no longer gas poor! And, I live in Oklahoma where gas shouldn't be high. But, unfortunatly, when you live in the country, jobs are farther away..
Mochi Mochi on June 01, 2008 at 11:40 PM
As much as I want to turn the Prius into a firebreathing hell rat of doom, I think it's a nice car and a good car. In fact one of the interesting things about the Prius is the worst thing anyone can say about it is that it has some issues with the ecological side-effects of its batteries.
Yes - the production of new cars is an issue too, but that's not a Prius issue, that's a new car issue. As new cars go, it looks nice, it carries a lot, it' gas efficient, and it is quiet (something can be done about that my friends, and if I get my hands on one it will ;) This is a good car that comports itself well and adapts to a lot of use. But if you want to be efficient you have to drive efficiently.
Ally hit on a really important step in getting great gas mileage - it's all about what you do with your right foot. I used to commute north of Boston. I had a 60 mile round trip. I decided one day that I would drive as efficiently as possible. My car was a completely stock 88 Civic DX. I'd always been a fast and aggressive driver. It was REALLY hard to slow down. But I got better at it with time, and eventually achieved 55 miles per gallon. I also put 90,000 miles on the tires before they needed replacement, and I drove 190,000 miles before changing the clutch.
The car was great. It was a slightly less exciting version of the 91 Si I drive now. But that car was wonderful and is sainted in my eyes. It took a lot of abuse and hard times. It succumbed to Northeast rust. It was not as small as a metro, but not as big as a Prius. It had a 1.5 liter four and a good set of skinny high efficiency tires on 13 inch steel rims.
Now, clearly, putting skinny tires on a gas guzzler and driving it carefully is never going to get you 50+mpg. But it will help - and it will help a lot.
Over this weekend, I jumped into a time machine. I got to drive a 1971 VW Squareback. Except for a different steering wheel and a robins egg blue paint job - it was exactly like my old 72 Squareback. I'll save the details of seeing "my" old car reborn in near perfect condition for another time. The point is that I used to pitch my Orange Squareback into turns and drift through them. Driving this 71 now I could hardly imagine such a thing was ever possible. It was vague and delicate with huge shifter throws, and incredibly modest acceleration. So it was a delight to drive. I treated the 71 like a delicate blue flower. I drove as if there was an egg strategically placed between my foot and the accelerator. Why? Because it asked me to treat it carefully - its essence was gentle and sweet. It was not, and never was, a fast car. It was a car that was uniquely space efficient, responsible, and good. It made me so happy to drive slowly and just enjoy the process of slowly moving from one place to another. It was a happy car.
It is really hard to create a car that encourages gentle efficient driving from the driver. It kind of goes against all that the marketing of cars requires. And there's the psychology of drivers to contend with. But I tell you if this little VW air cooler had an 88 honda 1.5 liter D engine in it, I can only imagine that it would encourage me to get 50+ mpg all the time. As it was the Squareback did remarkably well getting mid 30s for gas mileage.
The Prius and other hybrids are good cars, getting pretty good gas mileage. If you need to dump your gas guzzler, and you feel you have to buy a new car, the Prius or a Civic Hybrid would be a good option. But driven inefficiently they are not that efficient. A hybrid can't make up for a lead foot. Other cars that are not inherently as efficient as a hybrid can be driven in ways that enhance their efficiency. Wanna reduce your gas use? Next time you replace the tires get something skinnier with lower rolling resistance... and try driving more gently... like Ally said "try watching the scenery, noticing things". I guarantee you will get better gas mileage and it will be less expensive than buying a new car.
Of course after driving the VW I got back in my Si and hit the canyons. I did take it easy on the straights - the scenery was beautiful - but no comment on the twisties... hey, the car asked me to go fast - not my fault ;)
-----
Oh and for all of you VW Variant lovers, here's a 69 Fastback smoking an Audi TT in a drag race. I love this video... the only thing better than seeing a TT get it's doors blown off, is seeing a TT getting smoked by a snarly little fastback with a 2 liter and a Turbo.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=50p5aDSDnvQ
Rob the SVX guy on June 02, 2008 at 09:34 AM
Ally: Buying a new car that has batteries made in China where there are zero environmental regulations is nothing to be smug about. Add in shipping, the energy used to extract the materials for your prius, and not one, but TWO entire drivetrains plus all sorts of gadets to integrate them together, and your 'earth saving prius' is quite actually the opposite. You'd have reason to be smug if instead of shelling out $25k+ to save the environment, you spent under $1000 on an old used honda and put a ton of miles on it. Truth is, the carbon footprint created by that Prius will never shrink down to where my 89 hondas are. They're cheap to make, cheap to run, and if you can avoid the rust, they last almost indefinitely. So please, wake up and look at the big picture. You aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem. You've merely shifted the massive emissions from the tailpipe to another country's factories.
ryan on June 02, 2008 at 12:49 PM
Mochi Mochi
"The shift of instrument pods is a completely UNSAFE thing to do. Why is it done? To make room for the air bags!!!! So let's make a car that is more likely to crash due to distracted drivers! But it will be easier to get the damn air bags in!!"
I drive a Yaris with the cluster in the center. At first I thought I would HATE it but it took all of 1 hour of drive time to get use to it. Maybe because I drive more by feel then what my gauges are telling me, but having the cluster over to the lower side of my field of view instead of the center bottom, does not distract me from driving. It's still there if I need to look, and it doesn't take my eyes off the road any longer then a normal center bottom gauge. Also from what I understand they don't do it for a the airbag. The driver side airbag is in the steering wheel like every other car. They do it to keep cost down when they are selling cars to several different countries. They can use most of the same dash parts for cars with right or left hand steering wheels.
Steaming Pile on June 02, 2008 at 12:51 PM
I wonder why there isn't some sort of system on cars that cuts the engine at "idle" and restarts it when you take the foot off the brake. How hard would that be? No big-ass bank of batteries, no ridiculous tech, just a means to stop wasting gas in traffic jams.
Once upon a time (the 1980s), 90 HP for a car in Prius' class was perfectly adequate. Transmissions and tire ratios were engineered for just that reality. My Scion xA, which you are all probably tired of hearing about, makes 103 SAE HP on 1.5 liters displacement. That would have qualified my car as a pocket rocket (a miniature muscle car) back then. If you were able to cut the engine at idle, you could probably save as much gas as the hybrid system does.
Now, if you want to sell me an electric car, just make one with a plug-in port and forgo the internal combustion engine altogether. I need a car the size of a Toyota Yaris sedan that will go 100 miles on a charge at 60 MPH, and be able to withstand winter weather (hold at least half its charge while parked during an eight-hour workday) down to -20F. A car with those specifications should be enough to get me to the airport in Syracuse from where I live (near Utica), and be more than adequate to get me around town, and I don't think that's beyond the capabilities of a team of reasonably-competent automotive engineers.
JEM on June 02, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Ah, I drove around in a Prius for a week or so.
Powertrain works fine, shame about the car.
Well, not entirely true. It's got decent interior room.
But it hobbyhorses down the road like the suspension isn't quite set up right for the weight of the battery, it had no idea whatsoever of where straight ahead is (maybe they've fixed this in the past couple years, but I suspect alignment settings intended for minimal rolling resistance) and I loathe - LOATHE - Toyota's recent design philosophy of pushing the A-pillars out to the bumper with a dash the size of a small aircraft-carrier flight deck so that you have no clue where the nose of the car is. Mine was a rental with less than a thousand miles on it and the front end was already scuffed up, so obviously I'm not the only one.
Those lousy Toyota and Honda dashboards that put the instruments all over hell except in front of the driver are an abomination as well.
For a company that sells as many cars as Toyota does to build NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING that I would spend money on amazes the hell out of me.
Rob the SVX guy on June 02, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Mochi, yeah, center dash clusters are to save money. It has nothing to do with airbags.
Steaming Pile: Won't happen. 100 miles is a long distance. Today's electric cars can get 200 miles BARELY, with a tailwind, and without headlights, heat, radio, etc. That said, most people drive less than 50 miles per day, so even 50 miles would fulfill the role of the commuter car.
Mochi Mochi on June 02, 2008 at 01:34 PM
Steaming Pile "I wonder why there isn't some sort of system on cars that cuts the engine at "idle" and restarts it when you take the foot off the brake"
There was. I did a little searching. I believe it was part of design that VW integrated into a special high mileage Diesel Rabbit/Golf in the mid-80's. It only saw European roads. It worked well and effectively reduced city gas consumption by close to 50%.
Ryan: "It's still there if I need to look, and it doesn't take my eyes off the road any longer then a normal center bottom gauge" I'm sure that under ideal circumstances center instrument placement is not an issue. I'm thinking of circumstances that are not ideal. Those are the ones where accidents happen. Add a cell phone, a radio, a scary insect flying around the cabin, and a back seat driver... you get the idea.
Also a lot of people tend to steer in the direction they are looking. Guess what happens when something starts beeping, and the instrument display starts flashing warning lights. Accident waiting to happen.
The reason, like Rob said, its cheaper and easier to place the pod off to the side. Not an excuse I that works for me. It really is an ergonomic failing.
D Palmer on June 02, 2008 at 01:35 PM
You know, the geo might match or beat the Prius's mileage and therefore its CO2 output.
But in terms of particulates and other non-CO2 emmissions I would bet that the Prius, or for that matter an ULEV Accord or Subaru pollutes less than the Mtro did when new and certainly less than a 10-15 year old Geo does now.
So, from a green perspective (and I am thinking about getting a G8 GT with the wonderful gas sucking 360 hp V8, so I'm no greeny) the Prius is probably the equal of or superior to a used Metro.
Pete on June 02, 2008 at 01:56 PM
The batteries in hybrids are the main reason I won't consider a hybrid right now. You've got nickel mined from Canada that is sent to Europe to be processed, then to China to be turned into nickel foam, then to Japan to be turned into batteries, before being shipped back here in an import (all on a diesel-burning cargo ship). That's making a carbon footprint about twice of that of a hummer.
That being said, I own an 05 Odyssey with VCM that shuts off three cylinders, so I do like "eco" technology, and there are things that the Prius does which is good I'd wish it would incorporate. For example, reusing energy that is used during braking is a great feature. Just think how much gas could be saved if the trucking industry were able to leverage that technology. Formula One is looking into recovering power generated from braking.
Also I really like Cookie's idea about a prius with an R32 drivetrain, and I would add a twist to that: let's take the VW TDI turbo diesel and put that into a Prius. Now that would be cool.
Mochi Mochi on June 02, 2008 at 02:02 PM
Honda !! Of course !! Pete thanks. I've been trying to remember who was shutting cylinders down for increased fuel efficiency. Who else but the magic engine gnomes at Honda. Figures.
jblog on June 02, 2008 at 02:48 PM
"The batteries in hybrids are the main reason I won't consider a hybrid right now. You've got nickel mined from Canada that is sent to Europe to be processed, then to China to be turned into nickel foam, then to Japan to be turned into batteries, before being shipped back here in an import (all on a diesel-burning cargo ship). That's making a carbon footprint about twice of that of a hummer."
That's a steaming load of Internet BS, that has long since been debunked.
In any event, you don't have to be an tree-hugging dirteater to want to have cleaner air and to give less of your money to people who hate us.
I've had my Prius for about 15 months now -- comfortable to drive, handles well, plenty of pep, lots of interior room. Pretty much meets all my automobile transportation needs.
Oh, and it gets great gas mileage too.
Corky Boyd on June 02, 2008 at 03:18 PM
I have had a Prius for just about 6 months now. I am definitely not a global eco-alarmist, nor did do it to make a statement. Nor did I do it to save money. The car it replaced leased for $100/month less thatn the Prius. And I was paying less than $100/month for gas. There was no way to save money. I just wanted as little of my money to go to Hugo Chavez and the other petty dictators as possible.
The car has been a pleasure to drive and delivers an average of 50 mpg. There are shortfalls to it: the power steering (electric) doesn't center well, the long wheelbase and narrow tread makes it difficult to turn. But for those who say it is far from the ultimate in efficiency, I have to dispute them. Yes you could make it out of carbon fiber, power it with a diesel and use LiIon batteries but that would be cost prohibitive with today's technology.
The more I drive it and the more I read about it, I find Toyota hasn't missed much. The body shape, narrower and longer than normal yields the same internal space but less frontal area. The slopey windshield gets the coefficient of drag down to .26, the lowest of any production car. The compromise is looks, but it results in the unique appearance and has probaly helped sales for those wishing to "make a statement." The engine is an Atkinson cycle engine with offset crank and unique valve timing. This limits horsepower and power band width, but allows 13 to 1 compression to give more effiency. A/C and power steering is all electric. What gives the Prius it's main effiency edge is kinetic energy recovery, capturing braking energy and using it to reaccelerate. The energy program is optimized for each phase. It uses direct engine to wheel power under consant state diriving primaily, but on acceleration uses stored energy. When the batteries are near the top it goes to battery only.
The real pleasure (and a bit of smugness) comes at the gas pump. I used to get inquisitive comments about gas mileage, now I get leers.
anym_avey on June 02, 2008 at 03:22 PM
"A few years back (1985 or so) one of manufacturer - I think it was VW - experimented with a number of gas saving mods to their cars. I think there was a Rabbit that had a motion sensor. When the car was at rest at a red light, the engine was shut down. There was an oversized starter that would restart the car when the light turned green. I believe this was some kind of link between ignition and clutch."
This system still exists and has been used in some cartball wagon designs. Step on the gas pedal, and a battery drives a large motor to start forward motion and a small engine at same time. Cart continues under engine power and backfeeds the battery via the motor to top it off for the next iteration. Repeat until 18 holes have been completed in a style Mark Twain might approve of.
Random Numbers on June 02, 2008 at 04:07 PM
"That's a steaming load of Internet BS, that has long since been debunked."
It may nave been responded to, but I have not seen anything that makes for a "debunking". More often such arguments are an attack on the motives rather than an arguments of fact.
Could you please link to the "debunking" argument to which you refer, or is your statement a steaming load of internet BS?
Cookie the Dog's Owner on June 02, 2008 at 04:46 PM
Something I neglected to mention earlier: my GTI has this wonderful fuel-saving device. There's a video screen in the middle of the instrument cluster, and one of the available displays is instantaneous MPG. I usually have it set to that mode. I suspect it's having at least a subconscious effect, as I'm getting well in excess of the official EPA combined estimate, and other than cruising in 6th on the freeway, I'm not driving in a style to maximize fuel economy, if'n you know what I mean.