SUV Throwdown
My goodness. I step away for a few days, and all hell breaks loose. It's a sign of how emotional car enthusiasts get about SUVs that even this friendly community can begin bludgeoning each other in, of all things, the comments thread of a post about the poor, cringing 1973 Oldsmobile Cutlass.
Now, several days later, that thread is overflowing with novellas railing against SUVs, some quasi-personal invective, and strategically placed body waste. The conversation was actually pretty good, minus the parts that were verging on insulting. It never quite got to the "YOUR AN IDIOT!!!1!!!" stage, but still, let's keep it polite, folks.
So, anyway, before I offer up my two cents, here's The Simpsons' take with, naturally, German subtitles:
So, anyway, to the conversation at hand.
How I feel about SUVs
Trucks and SUVs used to be exceptionally useful vehicles, optimized for truckish pursuits--towing, hauling, and traction in all conditions. The downside was that they were heavier, used more gas, were less comfortable, and accelerated, handled, and braked less well than their car and station wagon compatriots. Because of that, people used cars for everyday use and trucks when they needed the utility. The trade-offs were clear.
Now, SUVs are being used as cars. Some cars, like the Audi All-road and various Subaru Outbacks, are consciously being made more truckish. Trucks have become smoother, more refined, and perform better than they ever did. Some cars are now more rugged, can carry more, and have all-wheel-drive.
The lines are blurring, and that's frustrating to me because the innate compromises haven't gone away. Even today's SUVs aren't cars--they can't be. If they are to maintain any part of what makes SUVs special, they are inevitably heavier and taller. The resulting weight and height create dynamic problems that compromise every element of on-road performance--acceleration, handling, braking, economy, and emissions. Excellent engineering can diminish those compromises, but they inevitably exist.
More and more SUVs and crossovers--basically, tall wagons like the Dodge Colt Vista with a little bit of marketing fairy dust--are being made without skid plates and low-range 4WD gearing, both of which give SUVs the utility that makes them special. The reasoning is clear--people aren't using those features.
Most SUVs are now being used like cars--a role that exposes their compromises, without taking advantage of their strengths. The commenters who argue that the majority of SUV owners would be better off with cars, station wagons, and minivans are probably right. A cold-blooded, rational person who needs a vehicle that fits most people's everyday needs would probably be somewhat better off with a car, a station wagon, or a minivan.
Back when I was a teenage jerk, I had no trouble sharing that viewpoint. I was completely insensitive to my Mom when she bought a first-gen Honda CR-V. I had no compunction about questioning her intelligence. The CR-V was nothing but a Civic on stilts, I sneered, except it was more expensive, slower, and didn't even have a tape deck. I made her feel pretty bad about it. It was a horrible, reprehensible moment of bullying that I've regretted ever since. I made my own mother feel dumb about her car--a car that she went on to love and cherish for a decade, that got her home safe in snowstorms, that was able to move my sister's entire apartment in one 1,500-mile trip, that was nearly as easy-to-drive and economical as a Civic.
When my wife's aunt wanted to buy a CR-V, I'd matured a little. I accepted what she wanted, we shopped around, and now she's made her new Hyundai Santa Fe a proud member of her family. We borrow it all the time to haul things we need, and she doesn't have to chain up when she drives over Snoqualmie Pass. It does what she needs, and she's very happy with it.
My parents now own a Lexus RX330, and while it's not what I'd buy for the money, it's a pretty nice ride. It's just as comfortable as a Lexus sedan, and it fits a ton of luggage when they go road-tripping.
Not all SUVs are made equal
I think when people rail against SUVs, the outrage is mostly directed at full-size SUVs like the Hummer H2, Chevy Suburban, and Ford Expedition. Those are the biggest, most obvious offenders of public dignity. I can understand the outrage, if not share in its intensity.
But really, how offensive are the smaller SUVs? A Honda CR-V is a different animal than a Hummer H2. It seems to me that the outrage about massive SUVs is a bit out of place when SUVs are increasingly smaller and more car-based.
Speaking personally, my biggest insult with the smaller SUVs is to my intelligence. The Nissan Xterra is sold as a chariot of young, lantern-jawed extreme athletes who like to surf over waterfalls with gliders strapped to their backs. A whole recent line of GM SUVs was made up of made-over minivans, with uglier styling and slightly diminished utility. My mind rebels at the cynical marketing at play with sport-themed SUVs, the alphabet soup of non-SUV acronyms (SAV, for instance), and crossovers.
But most of the SUVs I see are powered by 4- and 6-cylinder engines; the mammoth V-8 sport-utes are much less common than they were a couple of years ago.
Do people really need SUVs?
It all depends on where you draw the line between need and want. I can say that the SUV owners I know use them to haul cargo from time to time, and they appreciate the fact that they have all-wheel-drive traction if they need it. A few of the short women who drive SUVs really like the fact that they sit up high--it makes them feel safer and in control. Are these needs? I don't know--but they are features people want when buying a vehicle.
One of the things that made me uncomfortable about the comment thread was the idea that people have to justify whether or not they actually need their SUVs. At one point, Rob commented to OldCarGuy:
"Your needs are very shallow at best. ... You say you need to go offroading... for what exactly? Now see if you can wrap your brain around this concept: Most people have no need whatsoever for owning an SUV, and try to come up with reasons why the 'need it'. You don't need it."
I like Rob a lot--he's funny, knowledgeable, and has great taste in cars. But I don't get where he's coming from here. OldCarGuy wanted an SUV. He bought one. If he really didn't need it, it's his money he's wasting. And if I was OldCarGuy, and Rob was getting in my face about whether or not I really needed my car, my response would have been to tell Rob to bugger off and mind his own business.
Here's the trouble, Rob. You own a delectable Subaru SVX (which, incidentally, I'd sell various body parts to get my hands on). Like an SUV, its everyday utility is compromised in some small but tangible way for capabilities that doesn't get used every day (in this case, speed and handling). The more you use the SVX's capabilities, the larger a danger you pose to others. It would really be safer for everybody for you to drive what you really need. In this case, we've decided all you need is a Toyota Echo. Enjoy!
It's not like I'm immune. Right now I'm lusting for a burgandy-over-burgandy 1975 Chevy Impala coupe for sale down the road. It's a massive gas guzzler. It pumps out roughly 10X the tailpipe emissions of any new car. It can carry at most two full-size adults in reasonable comfort. It accelerates, handles, and brakes poorly. Its level of traction and utility is completely reprehensible. Unless perfectly maintained, it's probably a safety risk to every other car on the road. I could get a 10-year-old Ford Explorer for the same price, and the Explorer would be the superior vehicle in every tangible way. Of course, for all of the intangible reasons, I badly want the Impala and wouldn't be caught dead in the Explorer.
So, when it comes to needs, I live in an incredibly fragile glass house, and there's no way I'm going to start throwing rocks.
Do people only buy SUVs because of fashion?
Some people do, no doubt. But even if we accept that people are just buying SUVs because of style and not because of need--a dubious, widely sweeping assumption--well, what's wrong with that? What part of our lives isn't impacted by the fashion of the time?
I have an analogous situation I'd like to throw out. I feel the same way about teenyboppers who wear their pink North Face fleece vests everywhere in the city as a style statement. High-activity, sweaty backpackers who are hiking in wet, cold conditions need fleece for its ability to insulate when wet. Those teenyboppers, faced with a challenging 65-degree mall atmosphere, really don't need North Face fleece. All they need is sweat pants and sweatshirts. Those expensive fleece vests will likely never be used as they were intended, but that's style.
I mean, a VW New Beetle is just a Golf with poor space utilization. But people buy them because of how they look. Sports sedans are more useful than high-end sports coupes, but people buy sports coupes because they're gorgeous. SUVs aren't really my taste, but even if people just buy them for the look, that's not exactly unique.
Most SUVs are pretty good at what they do
This might be the most controversial point here, especially after I just railed at length about the compromises inherent in SUVs. But while modern SUVs might not be great at anything, they tend to be pretty good at quite a bit.
I think minivans are better at carrying people; but SUVs are still excellent people carriers, with great headroom, width, and optional third-row seating. Cube vans are better at carrying lots of stuff, but SUVs are also highly efficient cargo-carriers, better even than my much-loved station wagons. Today's SUV's tend to also be nearly as comfortable as their sedan counterparts, are sure-footed in most conditions, and perform better and more efficiently than they used to.
So while SUVs might not be the best choice for most tasks, they do tend to be pretty useful.
What about safety?
Rob the SVX Guy: "Most importantly, people who CHOOSE to drive an SUV CHOOSE to endanger my life."
This is a great point. Not enough people talk about bumper incompatibility--an SUV's bumper is higher than a car's bumper and so collisions create more damage than in other collisions. It's a dangerous situation. And I hate the logic that leads to people choosing to drive an SUV to "win" collisions.
But I don't think it's so remarkably different as to justify making what other people drive my business. SUVs are slightly more dangerous than other cars in a collision under equal circumstances--but most of it comes down to the driver and the circumstances. And semis and omnipresent light- and medium-duty commercial vehicles are much, much worse from a safety perspective. A poorly- or too aggressively driven sports car is arguably more dangerous to other drivers than a reasonably driven SUV.
So what about Rob's chosen method of protest?
First of all, did anybody else realize how funny it was that Rob's most vocal ally in a thread in which he said he once pooped on a Hummer's hood was a guy named "Steaming Pile?"
I tend to think of people who vandalize cars as the worst kind of criminals. Key a car? You deserve time in the stocks. Steal a car? I think tarring and feathering is too kind.
But pooping on the hood? It's ridiculously unhygienic, but it makes me laugh, mostly because my absurdist sense of humor loves the idea of strategically placed fecal matter as a protest device. I'm interested in seeing it translated to other issues, such as education, foreign policy, and environmentalism.
My question--if bird droppings are acknowledged as one of the most serious threats to your car's clearcoat finish, what about human leavings?
So do you really like SUVs?
No, not really. There are a few exceptions, but they're not really my cup of tea, for all the reasons above. Like Mochi Mochi, I prefer the harder-edged trucks that maximize the utility without all the gingerbread. When I want to drive a car, I'll just drive a car. I can't say I really get or share the level of vitriol others have for SUVs, but I'm not planning on buying one either.
I'm just out of the business of telling people what they should and shouldn't drive. My own tastes just can't stand that level of scrutiny.
Some quotes:
Mochi Mochi: "But SUV's go beyond the pale. They are an expression of the worse excess and lack of imagination that has ever been conceived. They are a plague and an abomination. "
Wow! Mochi Mochi, getting biblical.
Steaming Pile: "The silver lining of $4 gas is that you don't see as many of those things on the road anymore."
Yep--full-size SUVs are already a tough sell. Nothing changes purchase behavior more than the pocketbook.
Steaming Pile: "End rant, and I don't give a damn if I offended anyone."
That's not a great attitude, SP. I know this goes against the grain of every other Internet community out there, but what I'd really like to have here is a community where people do care if they offend others because they share a mutual respect.
Cookie the Dog's Owner: "I don't get the intensity of the hate toward SUVs and their owners. I don't need or want an SUV myself. For some people, the four-wheel drive and ground clearance and cargo capacity may be a practical necessity. (I have farmer clients who fit into this category.) For the others, there's no practical need. They just want the manly big truck, for whatever irrational reason. So? As I see it, if someone's ride does what they want it to do, and the beast is mechanically reliable and complies with applicable safety laws, who am I to argue with their choice of wheels? It's their money -- including their gas money -- and it's a free country last time I checked. If I'm going to indulge my own passions with a turbocharged hot hatch, or "ooh" and "aaah" over Ferraris and Impala SS 409s and Jensen Interceptors, where do I get off telling someone else that they're morally deficient if they spend their automobile dollars in a different way?"
See, I could've just saved all of these keystrokes, because Cookie the Dog's Owner already did a great job nailing it. But why use one word when four will do?
David Drucker: "But keep this in mind: oil is a finite resource, and the sooner it's gone the sooner we'll get serious about finding alternative energy sources. That being the case, I feel a certain amount of guilt when driving my oh-so-efficient Accord. I get the sense that I should be doing more -- such as driving a Navigator -- to hasten the day when the pumps run dry"
This made me chuckle.
Mochi Mochi: "I don't hate the people. I don't even hate the cars. I just think that there is a serious lack of imagination that surrounds the SUV. 90 to +95% of the owners can't actually justify them, and are purchasing them for status and vanity only. We did not have them 30 years ago - not in the current plushed_out form - and we did not need them then. I don't think they are actually better in any way than an 83 Malibu wagon. "
Nicely played, sir--you know my weaknesses.
Rob the SVX Guy: "First off, my name is Rob, and I DO support vandalism, prejudice, hatred, and vulgarity towards SUV owners. I have defecated on the hood of an H2, and I will do so again in the future. I print out SUV poser tickets, and distribute them under SUV wipers. I seriously HATE them, and most people who drive them. I also flip off any luxury SUV I see, in any part of town."
Rob, if you wind up running for office in a decade or two, I'd suggest this not be part of your platform.
The photos here are just a smorgasbord of quasi-related over-the-top images that, when combined with the serious conversation here, made me chuckle.
--Chris H.
Dominic on November 28, 2008 at 08:50 AM
I can think of nothing more selfish than an SUV that is not utilised for work.
Really, what gave people the innate right to unnecessarily consume so many resources?
How many people actually really need 4wd? I mean really need it? If you do then fine, I have no issue with that. Mumtrucks, Chelsea Tractors, Hummers (OMG - who needs that?) whatever you call them. An irresponsible self-indulgent waste.
Go look up BCSD.
Dominic
Expedition driver on September 17, 2009 at 07:47 PM
Wow You guys are definitly something in here I mean suv's are a saftey problem because of the height of the bumpers and the damage that happens to smaller sedans and nothing happens to a suv......well heres a point maybe the person in the sedan should be a more cautious driver and not rear end a suv I actually did a little research and found out that rear end collisions, rollovers, and property damage are a higher percent then front end collisions with an suv rear end collisions being the highest saftey concern you are talking about a 5700 lb vehicle (Ford Expedition) to an 80,000 lb semi truck and wonder why somone has to have a special license to drive a vehicle that weighs 74,300lbs more than a suv...............mmmmmmmmmmmmm I think I have stumbled upon a very concerned citizen blog here and while Itook the time to read your blogs in rather large distaste being as I drive a ford expedition and my wife has a minivan that we outgrew because to fit my entire family a cooler, three strollers, and folding chairs to go to a county fair was impossible in the minivan just with carseats and strollers alone I also have the power to pull my boat which if we took the van would of blown the transmission to pieces. all in all you guys are all as you say lacking in good judjment when it comes to your pitiful attemts to reason why people should not drive suv's I pay the 4 dollars at the pump because thats what the price is and i dont care because it was my choice to buy my 8 cylindered gas guzzling unsafe unethicle vehicle and while I drive in comfort instead of cramming my family into something that resembles a clown car I do so with a clear concience .....why dont you buy two cars instead suv guy ok have two cars to fill with gas two insurace payments two vehicle payments and mantinence on two cars instead of taking one say you get 28 mpg in one car take two you drive a hundred miles you will use 4 gallons of gas per vehicle which is 8 gallons but my expediton with 14 to 15 mpg would use 7 gallons and a family can be a family in one vehicle I drive my suv safe Iam a offensive and defensive driver and dont endager anyone life when Ifire up my 8 hopping mad cylinders and go down the road I suggest people in smaller vehicles pay more attention driving thier cars escpecially around an suv .....would you cut off, pull out in front of or try to bulldog a big rig ....nope so dont do it to me in my big badass suv you guys are idiots i actually feel dumber for taking the 15 minutes out of my life to read this embarrasing nit wit discussion you have all made me feel a little better about driving my suv but i feel as though my IQ has dramatically dropped for even humoring a bunch of moron, green boy, electric car, tofu eating jackasses its people like you that ruin the american economy by buying forieng pieces of shit when your company gets downsized you get layed off or fired and cant find a job except flipping burgers at mcdonalds remember the suv meatheads sacrificing everyones saftey who buy american automobiles and keep americans working in the famous words of johnny cash "Fuck off"
expedition guy on September 17, 2009 at 08:05 PM
sweet my last comment got deleted i guess probably made too much sense by the way I hope you all realize a suv is nothing more than a pickup truck with an enclosed cargo and seating area the size of a ford f350 crew cab dually is actually longer than any suv at 243.2 inches most suvs are 200 to 220.5 inches long
expedition guy on September 17, 2009 at 08:09 PM
And I personally feel the most unsafe drivers and liabilities on the road are the meatheads on the crotch rockets doing 120 past me on the highway and the kids in their customized 4 cylider honda with the oh so usefull wing on the back street racing down the niegborhood i live in while my kids stay in the front yard all it takes is one bad judgment by them to end up on my porch.....so yea suvs are just horrible......damn i cant stop
mybigwarwagon on December 23, 2009 at 10:43 PM
I have several trucks and I use them daily. I have a 94 Suburban that spends more time off road than on. It daily hauls huge loads and it will go anywhere I need it to. Plus I can lock up my tools in it.
To say that a smaller car is safer is a large pile of BS. I am constantly being cut off by smaller cars. Just today I signaled for a lane change and the driver of a small car took it as a signal to speed up and try to block me after I was halfway over with a 30 foot trailer. And for some reason small car drivers think they have a God given right to tailgate. It is the Nintendo state of mind and it makes me sick. I can do this in a video game and my car feels nimble so I can do it on the road. Although most drivers have no idea how to handle whatever car they drive.
Anyone can justify their choice of car. However when you try to tell me that I cannot choose to drive what I what to when I want to you are encroaching on my rights. Anyone who does that needs a serious attitude adjustment.
And by the way, if I ever caught someone taking a dump on my hood they had better pray that the cops get them before I do.
dick vandtie on January 10, 2010 at 07:11 PM
i dont care what u just said, i own 5 hummers and 3 escalades and i dont see why everyone call them "deminishing" and someone like you is jealose!
Scottie on January 27, 2010 at 06:03 PM
SUV? I dont own one. In fact, the SUV wasnt enough for me! You see, some people take their trucks/suv's off road because, like me, its their hobbie! And sometimes they can only afford one car. Why not get the car that can let them continue their hobbie and do their daily stuff. Me, on the other hand, I figured that if I am going to put so much money into a car, I better be able to take it to local Muddin' tournaments and win! and thus I bought a M813 6x6 all-wheel drive military cargo truck, with greater off road capabilities than the original H1 Hummer, and now I can quite literally run over SUV's, and beleive it or not, its street legal! (and it only costed $8000) I make a lot of money in these tournaments. And now, I am about to order a $500,000 machine called Ripsaw. It will pay for itself in no time, even in the major competitions! But I will still have use for my M813, I can use it to pull the trailer with Ripsaw on it. I can also give off-road rides in the M813 and put it in parades/car shows. My point is, SUV's arent what small car owners have to worrie about on the road. Its me. I got to get a latter to get in to the hood to work on my 5 ton M813 (no, I am not exaggerating)
Bottom line, If its such a big deal and it compromises your safety, get an SUV yourself! (but still watch out for my "beast")
anonymous on March 21, 2010 at 05:45 PM
The only thing remotely close to an SUV Expedition driver and dick vandtie should be in is the short bus. an entire run-on paragraph? Seriously, go back to elementary school, dumbass. Mybigwarwagon uses his SUV, so he he has a right to it. but how the hell can No-dick vantie be so rich yet so stupid that he cant even spell "diminishing", or "jealous"? I can only assume your mom was snuffing cocaine while she was pregnant with your sorry ass and bought you all those Hummers and Escalades because you of how "Special" you are.
P.S. I know electric cars are bad for the environment, so dont bring it up.
Dawn on June 29, 2010 at 10:22 AM
I'm just curious about how much this Hummer gets your juices flowing? Ridiculous? Gotta have one? A hippie somewhere just died?
http://youtu.be/2arW2up7GdA?hd=1
For the record, I almost broke my neck trying to get out of this beast in heels.