Honda Odyssey
Perhaps this isn't as much about lust as it is grudging admiration and respect. After all, it's hard to really lust after a minivan--if for no other reason that to do so opens you up to merciless ridicule. Not, of course, that being ridiculed for my automotive tastes is anything new.
Before you begin pelting me with rotten produce, please let me explain. The minivan gets a bad rap in this country--it is almost universally reviled as a symbol of dweebish parenthood and mindless suburbia, a scarlet letter attached to soccer moms' chests. Of course, soccer moms now have embraced large SUVs, which are similar to minivans yet inferior in every way that is relevant to family transport. Of course, now the affection of soccer moms has begun to afflict SUVs with the same stigma that large station wagons and minivans have borne for the last few decades.
Okay, so minivans are universally scorned. But why? What are the minivan's crimes? The only crime I can see is that it's too good at its job.
The minivan's job is to haul people and cargo in as comfortable and efficient a manner as possible, and it fulfills that mission admirably. Forget about three-row SUVs. Minivans can carry more people more comfortably than even large SUVs; and with the extraordinary flexibility of seat placement/folding/removal, minivans are unparalleled at virtually everything you'd need it to do.
Need to carry a bunch of kids and their stuff on a road trip? There's no better vehicle than a minivan. Want to haul as bulky a load of cargo as you could in a pickup, but you'd prefer to keep it dry, clean, and secure? Fold down or remove the seats, and the minivan becomes a cargo hauler par excellence. Want to take your buddies on a week-long backpacking trip? You can fit everybody, their backpacks, the food, AND a few cases of beer.
People rightfully rave about the cargo-carrying flexibility of wagons, hatchbacks, crossovers, SUVs, and even oddballs like the Honda Element and PT Cruiser, but all of those pale in comparison with the humble minivan.
As a group, SUVs' sole advantages over minivans are style and sheer off-road capability--and it's not as if today's popular car-based SUVs (effectively minivans in drag) are fantastic at low-range bouldering.
The other day, I posed a question to a few of my co-workers--if you needed the people- and cargo-carrying capacity of a large vehicle, would you really penalize yourself by selecting something less useful than a minivan just to save your ego? And if that's true, just how sad is that? How much are we letting what others think dictate a fundamental part of our everyday lives? A surprising number said they would never drive a minivan, no matter what.
Popular culture is so anti-minivan today that driving one is so counter-culture, so in the face of popular biases, so keeping-it-real, that it's almost punk rock. In a utilitarian way, anyway.
Anyway--what about the Honda Odyssey? In my mind, it's the peak of the minivan mountain. It comes with a smooth and torquey 244-horsepower VTEC V-6, is as silky smooth to drive as its similarly excellent Honda and Acura siblings, and with leather and navigation, you'd have to push the Odyssey pretty hard before it feels at all dissimilar to the excellent Acura TL.
Honda's Pilot and its near-twin, the Acura MDX, are both among the best SUVs you can buy; yet in terms of everyday use, I'd be hard-pressed to find a way in which they are superior to the Odyssey. Plus, the Odyssey even looks good.
Okay, now you can throw rotten produce at me.
--Chris H.
Chris Hafner on January 28, 2008 at 08:29 PM
Dave: "Hear that sound? That's the sound of your manhood being snipped off. As much as you want to convince yourself otherwise, you will never project the image of cool or 'punk rock' in a mini van, but you will project the image of Bob Saget."
What you're not getting here is that the people who buy these aren't buying them to project an image. I would argue that those who let their vehicle purchase be determined by other people's opinions are surrendering far more of their "manhood."
The person who buys a minivan is telling you they don't particularly care what you think--they'll drive what they want. That's kinda punk rock, don't you think?
Chris Hafner on January 28, 2008 at 08:29 PM
Dave: "Hear that sound? That's the sound of your manhood being snipped off. As much as you want to convince yourself otherwise, you will never project the image of cool or 'punk rock' in a mini van, but you will project the image of Bob Saget."
What you're not getting here is that the people who buy these aren't buying them to project an image. I would argue that those who let their vehicle purchase be determined by other people's opinions are surrendering far more of their "manhood."
The person who buys a minivan is telling you they don't particularly care what you think--they'll drive what they want. That's kinda punk rock, don't you think?
Chris Hafner on January 28, 2008 at 08:32 PM
Eric D.: "I own an '05 Mazda MPV, which is much smaller and more nimble than some of its brethren, and can still do as much. "
Yep--I'm a fan of the MPVs as well, especially the first generation, which was trim and ... can I say it? ... *sporty.*
Chris Hafner on January 28, 2008 at 08:34 PM
vodkaho: "And the station wagon was always an unhappy compromise between a van and a passenger car."
Whoa, there. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
The station wagon is an *extremely happy* compromise between a van and a passenger car.
I'm enough of a wagon loony to prefer the wagon in almost every iteration to its sedan counterpart. That open air above the trunk and behind the D-pillar on a sedan is just a sad, sad waste of what could be a wagon roofline. Yeah, I know, I'm on my meds.
Bengoshi on January 28, 2008 at 08:43 PM
Puleaase. Mini Vans are just plain UGLY - no style; great for this country where style matters not. (Honda included) And they are always crawling in the left hand lane getting in my way.
As the bumper sticker says: "Minivans are tangible evidence of evil." Go ahead everyone here and pat yourself on the back for not having to be "cool." Sorry, but the sooner the roads are free of these ugly beasts, the better.
Chris Hafner on January 28, 2008 at 08:52 PM
Guy Montag: "So, how much are you paid to write this? It's well written, but it rings of corporate product placement. Phrases like "It comes with a smooth and torquey 244-horsepower VTEC V-6, is as silky smooth to drive..." stick out. Outside of advertisements, people don't tend to write like that. I don't particularly mind advertising, but I appreciate it when it's honest about what it is. Or maybe I'm making a mistake, and you're a well-meaning blogger who loves vehicles and just happens to use a bit more advertising argot than most."
---
Me: Okay, this is a fair question, and it deserves an answer, because this kind of thing bugs me too. I think I'll do a post on this subject if I have the time tomorrow, but here's a comparatively brief answer.
I get paid the dizzying sum of *$0* to do this blog, and Amazon gets nothing from the car manufacturers. My real job here at Amazon actually has nothing to do with blogging and is only tangentially related to cars.
I love cars--most of them, anyway--and enjoy writing about things I find interesting. I actually *do* think that Honda V-6 is smooth and torquey. It's a superlative engine whether it's in an Odyssey or an Acura RL.
If you doubt my veracity, there are three courses of action you can take:
1. Wait until my post tomorrow when I will detail this a little more fully.
2. Scroll up this page click the tag "Car Disgust." This will bring you to my less sunny posts.
3. Take another look at my post--I think there are some parts that would have a Honda/Acura PR rep pretty fidgety. The part where I say that liking minivans opens you up to merciless ridicule, for example. Or that minivans are a scarlet letter for soccer moms. Or that most car-based SUVs are minivans in drag. I doubt anybody at Honda or Acura would particularly care for me comparing the Odyssey favorably (if semi-facetiously) to a TL.
JPark on January 28, 2008 at 09:26 PM
"Popular culture is so anti-minivan today that driving one is so counter-culture, so in the face of popular biases, so keeping-it-real, that it's almost punk rock. In a utilitarian way, anyway."
That is like saying popular culture is so anti-mascara for men that it is keeping it real to go all Robert Smith of the Cure to slather it on. Go ahead and buy a mini-van. Sid Vicious would be proud of you if you weren't a bunch of pathetic yuppy wannabes.
Guy Montag on January 28, 2008 at 09:28 PM
I'll take your word for it :)
Honesty is the most valuable coin on the internet and product placement and people who shill for companies without being up front about it tend to degrade one's faith in humanity. So when you hear certain phases crop up that sound like PR or Corporate Drone speak, you tend to question the honesty of what you're reading.
And I have to admit, "Car Lust by Amazon" tends to make one wonder. It's not too often that a company attaches their name to someone's personal blog, even if they do work there.
But like I said, I'll take your word for it :)
JPark on January 28, 2008 at 09:32 PM
'I'll never forget the two tween girls canvassing my neighborhood selling raffle tickets for their soccer team ... when they came up our house, I was outside and heard one of them say "Wow. Cool Van."'
Those are three words I can guarantee have never been said in that order.
JPark on January 28, 2008 at 09:35 PM
Guy Montag, I find it pretty far-fetched as well. Pure spin from a paid schill. This guy wouldn't know punk rock from nu-metal (and that would probably not be a bad thing) but it is all spin from one paid to spin.
JPark on January 28, 2008 at 09:38 PM
"JPark on January 28, 2008 at 09:32 PM
'I'll never forget the two tween girls canvassing my neighborhood selling raffle tickets for their soccer team ... when they came up our house, I was outside and heard one of them say "Wow. Cool Van."'
Those are three words I can guarantee have never been said in that order."
Unless it was said with an ironic roll of the eyes. Come on...minivans are not cool. No teenager would like them. Stop with the "it is cool to own a minivan" crap. Yeah, they would love the Blu-Ray and the XBox 360 built in but no teenager would ever admit that.
JPark on January 28, 2008 at 09:40 PM
Oh, it doesn't come with a built-in Blu-Ray and XBox 360? My bad.
TmjUtah on January 28, 2008 at 09:56 PM
We've had a minivan in the family for over ten years. The first was a four cylinder 88 Caravan, which gave good and faithful service for over 160k miles. We bought a six cylinder Grand Caravan (2000) as a rental recycle in in 2002 with 30K on it and have just passed 131k. We intend to get at least two more years out of it IF we continue to average over 20 mpg during the winter, 24 in the summer.
Now that our daughters are nearing launch age, the van is not as comfortable as it was - but we will get another one (2 years old +/- because we'll never buy new; can't see leaving ten k on the lot just driving off...) when this one plays out.
DensityDuck on January 28, 2008 at 10:27 PM
"Dale on January 28, 2008 at 05:40 PM
Toyota of India has an awesome minivan. If Toyota would bring the Innova to the US, the rest of the market would cry..."
Dale: But they'd have to change the name, because who would drive a van named after dog food?
Marion on January 28, 2008 at 10:42 PM
I love my minivan:
I have kids. They have friends.
I work for an exchange student organization. Last summer, meeting a student at the airport, I found out I can get myself, 6 exchange students, 3 suitcases and 2 carryons in my dinky 2001 Mazda MPV. And for my Japanese students, I can say "Watashiwa Mazdani moteimasu."
I can take 6 people car camping -- with the cartop carrier.
It has 120,000 miles on it, maintenance every 30,000 miles. Lately, 22 mpg combined highway and in town driving.
I could never be cool, so I just don't think it is important. I've never been impressed with it, either. I'd rather be real.
When this one bites the dust, I'm buying another.
Chad Johnson on January 28, 2008 at 10:44 PM
Oooooohh! Minivans!! I lurve me some minivans!! Hell, I love vans of any stripe!!
I've owned a lot of different vehicles:
1970 Chevy half-ton pickup
1979 Datsun 280ZX
1994 Pontiac Grand Am
1983 Toyota Lite Ace (this is a smaller version of the Toyota Van we're familiar with)
1979 Lancia Zagato
1984 Toyota Van
1981 Mazda GLC
1985 Mazda GLC
1976 Capri II
1995 Ford Econoline
1988 Saab 900
2004 Chevy Cavalier
All of these vehicles I'd gladly own again, except the Cavalier and the Grand Am. And the '85 GLC was a piece, I gave it back to the guy I bought it from. But I have real warm and fuzzies for the three vans on that list. My Econoline has 370,000 miles on it.
I would overwhelmingly get another minivan, if I could. My problem is that my wife doesn't like them, and anytime I bring up Siennas I get scowled at.
The mid-80's Toyota Vans had the 3Y and 4Y series engine in them. To my knowledge, Toyota only ever put those motors in one other product line: their forklifts. This is one of the reasons (perhaps biggest) why those vans have rated cargo capacities of 3/4 of a ton, and the 22R and 24R equipped pickups of the same generation (including the 4Runner) didn't.
And as hard as they were to work on, I can't imagine they're more difficult than any passenger vehicle currently produced for the American market. At least you can change the sparkplugs yourself, which can't be said for a good many recent model years of the Chrysler minivans.
It's like the Odyssey commercial says: Respect the Van.
Oatworm on January 28, 2008 at 11:10 PM
"Cool" is about finding what meets your needs and not giving a damn about what others think. If your needs involve carrying lots of passengers and cargo economically, minivans are perfect. If your needs involve picking up women for dates, you might want to pick something a little flashier. Of course, if you're picking up lots of passengers and cargo, odds are "picking up women" was taken care of a long, long time ago. *grin*
For what it's worth, if I needed a minivan, I'd get one. Since I only have one kid to deal with, though, my truck with the single bench seat still gets the job done... for now.
mochi mochi on January 29, 2008 at 01:33 AM
Comments on this post are with out a doubt the most dizzyingly varied I have seen to date on Car Lust. It is interesting that the mini-van would provide such a point of cohesion and repulsion - and that readers not usually active on this blog would suddenly participate. So many different and new voices.
Car Lust has inspired a lot of conversations that have gone in unexpected directions. In the past it has almost always been in a communal and positive way - or at least a humorous and good natured one. The peculiarity of this topic's responses is how much "image" and "coolness" seems to have driven out a strange bevy of personally negative commentary. It's really peculiar. Kind of makes me think of how people compensate for insecurity through adoption of particular images, socio-political positions, or persona - or just out right aggression. It's as if someone's hold on their manhood could be imperiled by driving a van or a car of any sort. Or that someone's sense of self would be so tenuous and outward looking that their choice of car could suddenly shatter their personal image - driving them to scream "no not me! I'll never drive one of those... one of those minivans! I'm no minivan driving sissy - not me!" Me think he doth protest too much. Car lust will definitely make a great sociology or psychology research paper.
Things that this post and comments have inspired in me include a new interest in the station wagon as a performance car. A desire to have a minivan that had been given the "full tuner-car lowrider treatment: thumping subwoofer, body kit, flashy graphics, alloy wheels, tinted glass" like the one that Cookie-the-dog's-owner saw. And finally a broadened appreciation for grace and versatility of honda engine design. Honda can make everything from full on F1 race engines to minivan engines, to motorcycle engines, to hybrids, to the screaming little 1.6L four in my civic - and they are all great if not legendary engines.
When I had one of my civic engines rebuilt, balanced, ported and polished, I remember the mechanic I worked with was in in awe of the engine design. He usually worked on american muscle cars - and at the time was restoring 14 AMXs. As he lifted the block with a single hand and twirled it about he said "look at this casting - look at it - no one but honda makes a casting like this. All one piece - strong. It's beautiful... it's so beautiful". He was right it was beautiful. I have to think if honda put that level of grace into a little civic engine they must have done some pretty nice work with the Odyssey too.
I have to hand it to Honda too for the naming of their cars. That they gave their van a name shared by Homer's epic poem of travel and adventure is really something. the accord and the civic - terms of peace and social responsibility.
Slocum on January 29, 2008 at 04:28 AM
"Almost everything in the article is spot on, except for the hauling cargo part. If you are a DIY person you can not haul sheetrock, doors in frame, washers and dryers, etc.."
Of course you can -- 4x8 sheetrock or plywood fit in with the gate closed. So do doors, and I've certainly hauled washers and dryers. And for boards, you can slide between the seats and get a few more feet. But you can also just tie down the gate and let really long lumber hang out the back, which I've done many times.
"In addition, there are times when you do not want to haul stuff in the interior of your vehicle, think bug infested furniture, old fridge with rotten contents, water-logged carpets, etc.."
Line the floor with a cheap sheet of chip board and cover with a tarp that runs up the sides of the van.
-----------------------
"Unless it was said with an ironic roll of the eyes. Come on...minivans are not cool. No teenager would like them."
Well, actually, both my kids have driven the same old minivan. Do they think it's cool? No, not really. But do they like it? Actually, yeah, they do -- it's good for hauling bunches of their friends around.
"Stop with the "it is cool to own a minivan" crap."
You're not getting it. The second-hand, borrowed cool that comes from buying stuff is shallow and kind of pathetic. Switching from a minivan to a sports car just doesn't -- can't -- make you a cooler person. Want to impress me as a cool person? Then you're going to have to BE interesting and DO cool, interesting, worthwhile things. Buying and owning crap isn't going to work.
What? You don't care about impressing me? Excellent -- there you go, you're starting to get the whole minivan-owning thing. You can be cool and drive a Mustang, you just can't be cool BECAUSE you drive a Mustang.
Zoomdoggy on January 29, 2008 at 04:35 AM
As an owner of 3 greyhounds, we bought our Toyota Siena for the dogs. We're constantly hauling them around, and we take them along on road trips. The van is the best.
Goimir on January 29, 2008 at 04:56 AM
My wife had this page up when I grabbed the computer from her. If all I ever needed to haul were groceries on flat roads, I'd get a minivan. That being said, when it snows here and they don't plow the roads, I need something with 4 wheel drive. When there's a wreck on the paved road up the mountain, I don't want to drive 20 miles out of my way to the next one; I'd like to drive up the dirt road. Passenger capacity in a small SUV is adequate for my needs. The towing capacity on an SUV is also an added bonus, as I'd rather throw a half cord of firewood in a trailer and tow it to the house rather than make twice as many trips with a minivan. It's also easier to sweep out the trailer than it is to sweep out the back of a minivan.
I get angry when people say that SUVs aren't needed. When you live off the beaten path, something like a minivan will get you laughed at, but not for the usual reasons.
They'll laugh at you when you're stuck halfway up the hill, after they're done cursing you for holding up traffic.
moptop on January 29, 2008 at 05:07 AM
One thing that is obvious to me is that the lifestyles of the people here praising minivans are different than mine. I tow around heavy stuff, I take large groups skiing on occaison, Long distance driving is great when you have a third row where a person can stretch out and sleep when not driving, etc. For these things my Suburban is the bees knees. It would not be worth the gas for most of the commenters here. I don't get though how so many here can judge the car choices of others who don't share their lifestyle.
ske7ch on January 29, 2008 at 05:52 AM
lol.. My first car was a blue plymoth crystler minivan. It even had the wood grain down the side.. So I drew flames on the wood-grain, told everyone to F off because I could ferry atleast 8 other kids to school (pretty comfortably i might add) for some smokes and cash almost every day. Though I'll have to admit, I didn't like driving it. Not my style, in terms of how it handles and what it can do.
If I wanted cargo space I would get a 4x4 truck, then again I don't have children.
BillOH on January 29, 2008 at 06:11 AM
In defense of large SUVs and full size vans, if you need to tow or haul cargo there is no substitute. And, we often drive our Expedition into town run to run it once in a while, so maybe we are the ones you see, two people in the leather seated, automatic climate controlled, 6 way heated seats, 6 speakered "monstrosity". I'm sure going to drive what I have rather than proliferate vehicles even more (have an '00 Expedition, 89 Club Wagon Van, '03 Toyota Matrix and '94 Ranger 4WD).
We got the Expedition when the van got too tire to pull the livestock trailer. Excellent buy on them now, this is a maxed out Eddie Bauer edition that was over $40,000 new and got it last year for $9K. With the 5.4L engine and 4WD there's no place I need to go that I can't go now. So, greenie critics, remember that there are reasons people have the vehicles that they do, for reasons beyond wanting to pi** off the tree huggers. In my rural town of farmers, contractors, outdoor enthusiasts and other good rural folk, no one gives us the stink-eye for driving a big SUV.
Zarba on January 29, 2008 at 06:43 AM
I'm amazed by the people who are flaming this thread.
Get a grip. No one's forcing you to drive a minivan. Don't like 'em? Don't buy one.
Are they hip? Are they cool? Who cares! I don't drive anything to impress others. If you think your Mustang/BMW/Hummer/Whatever makes you cool, you're mistaken. And shallow.
What's cool? Driving what you want.
In my family we have two kids. But my wife thought the Odyssey was just too big. It is, frankly. I wish they hadn't discontinued the Mazda MPV. It was much better sized.
She wanted a Pilot, so we bought one. Wonderful vehicle. Cool? Who cares?
When my wife wants to have fun, she drives her Alfa Spider. Whichever kid goes with her has a blast.
We call this radical idea "free choice". Don't like it? Here's your Trabant.